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Unrestricted Participation and Worthwhile Discussion

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:43 am
by _DonBradley
Mormon Discussions was, of course, set up by my friend Dr. Shades as a place where anyone can have their say without censorship, such as that imposed by the "FAIR"/MAD mods. But it's not clear to me that such an approach leads to better discussion, rather than a greater ability to say things not worth either saying or reading.

The trouble with the censorship at FAIR/MAD is that isn't fair at all--it's ideologically biased. But this difficulty could be removed by moderating for substance rather than for ideology. The MAD mods throw out insubstantive and noxious posters--in theory. In practice, it is generally only insubstantive and noxious posters (and sometimes substantive posters) of a "critical" bent who get the boot. A board evenhandedly moderated for substance would be a much better place to talk, and would tend to promote much better discussions.

I suppose MDB has such a place--the Celestial Forum. But the Terrestrial Forum itself could be a much better place to talk if such things as purposeful baiting of other posters were excluded, and those posting such things were banished from it until they could show that they were worthy of progression from kingdom to kingdom. ;-)

Besides, the Celestial Forum is hardly used. Everyone knows that posting in the Celestial Forum is good way to make sure your thread is widely ignored. so everyone posts in the Terrestrial Forum, further ensuring that no one will even bother checking the Celestial Forum for new threads or new posts....

Don

Re: Unrestricted Participation and Worthwhile Discussion

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:56 am
by _JAK
DonBradley wrote:Mormon Discussions was, of course, set up by my friend Dr. Shades as a place where anyone can have their say without censorship, such as that imposed by the "FAIR"/MAD mods. But it's not clear to me that such an approach leads to better discussion, rather than a greater ability to say things not worth either saying or reading.

The trouble with the censorship at FAIR/MAD is that isn't fair at all--it's ideologically biased. But this difficulty could be removed by moderating for substance rather than for ideology. The MAD mods throw out insubstantive and noxious posters--in theory. In practice, it is generally only insubstantive and noxious posters (and sometimes substantive posters) of a "critical" bent who get the boot. A board evenhandedly moderated for substance would be a much better place to talk, and would tend to promote much better discussions.

I suppose MDB has such a place--the Celestial Forum. But the Terrestrial Forum itself could be a much better place to talk if such things as purposeful baiting of other posters were excluded, and those posting such things were banished from it until they could show that they were worthy of progression from kingdom to kingdom. ;-)

Besides, the Celestial Forum is hardly used. Everyone knows that posting in the Celestial Forum is good way to make sure your thread is widely ignored. so everyone posts in the Terrestrial Forum, further ensuring that no one will even bother checking the Celestial Forum for new threads or new posts....

Don


If it’s your view that this forum is problematic, why not set up your own forum which you regard as superior to this one?

JAK

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:56 am
by _skippy the dead
I can't disagree with a thing you said. I would like to see the ridiculous baiting, personal attacks, etc., consigned to the appropriate forum, as well. There's no reason why reasoned and lively discussions can't happen here without resorting to telestial tactics or grossly off-topic meanderings that serve only to detract from a thread's momentum.

Do you suppose that proper and more rigorous moderation in keeping with the stated purposes of the various forum "levels" would suffice (it may have become more lax in that regard), or would some additional rules or expectations be necessary?

Re: Unrestricted Participation and Worthwhile Discussion

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:59 am
by _JAK
Don states:

“But it's not clear to me that such an approach leads to better discussion, rather than a greater ability to say things not worth either saying or reading.”

If you regard the things said are “not worth either saying or reading,” why are you reading?

Why are you contributing?

What makes you think your post which started this thread is worth reading?

One benefit of such a forum as this is that it provides opportunity for people to express, with little restriction, their views.

Are there absurd posts? Of course.

Are there insightful observations? It would seem there are.

Can you set up a forum superior to what you criticize in this one?


JAK

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:59 am
by _DonBradley
Hey Skippy,

I think that the standards for the Terrestrial Forum should probably be set a bit higher, and then enforced consistently. I think the mods may want to consider banning frequent violators from a given forum.

Don

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:00 am
by _DonBradley
JAK,

Thank you for the demonstration that there are posts not worth reading. I shall forthwith not bother with yours. As to my own participation, see mine other thread.

And the idea that I should set up my own board to waste more of my time moderating dingbats like you is worse than absurd.

The Right Bulletin Board

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:03 am
by _JAK
DonBradley wrote:Hey Skippy,

I think that the standards for the Terrestrial Forum should probably be set a bit higher, and then enforced consistently. I think the mods may want to consider banning frequent violators from a given forum.

Don


You are surely joking. You’re certainly not realistic to contemplate that this or any bb could be monitored 24/7 to edit or delete posts which a judgment call regards as unacceptable.

You have a most unrealistic perception of a bb which is open for business continuously.

Again, why don’t you set up your own bb and edit it as you perceive it should be edited or controlled.

JAK

Don Wants No Disagreement, No Challenge

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:09 am
by _JAK
DonBradley wrote:JAK,

Thank you for the demonstration that there are posts not worth reading. I shall forthwith not bother with yours. As to my own participation, see mine other thread.

And the idea that I should set up my own board to waste more of my time moderating dingbats like you is worse than absurd.


Aha,

I see you want a board in which no one questions you. I primarily asked questions related to your criticism. And this is your response.

It seems an odd response unless you want to write your own dogmatic blog. You can do that. Many people are doing that now.

You answered none of my questions.

Perhaps you should read a good book and avoid bbs entirely.

JAK

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:11 am
by _Blixa
I've long wished that I could find the kind of discussions of Mormon history I would like to participate in here. Lately I've wondered if the Celestial Forum could offer a venue for better threads, but I'm not sure the kind of "moderation" that exists here would help in any of the tiers---the most I've seen moderators do is work on vulgarity and some personal baiting.

And that's not the problem.

The problem is posters who do not want to discuss in any sense of the term: they see their job as swooping in and denouncing supposed "anti-mormonism." They never engage in thoughtful replies or further investigation of topics because they're not interested in, or in some instances, not capable of such things. And while you can try to ignore the worst of this, sooner or later someone in the thread will start responding to the silliness and then the mud gets tracked all over.

I'm certainly as guilty as anyone of responding to provocation--sometimes when you read something not just completely offensive, but utterly lacking in any smidgen of human decency, its hard not to reply. I haven't posted in the two threads about the bizarre and malicious posts of Will Schryver about runtu on the MAD board because I want to stay out of this kind of thing. And yet, I have to admit I read things there that made me sick to my stomach.

I don't have any real practical suggestions either. My participation has been dwindling to only social commentary with friends. That's not without value, but pretty short of the potential this board could and should have.

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:23 am
by _Ray A
MDB is like a sort of parliament where you can say anything you like about anyone you like. But I have some chilling news. Internet libel and Internet laws are always being revised and upgraded all the time. One example:

A. THE UNITED STATES

Libelous messages placed on the Internet in the United States is upheld to the same level of scrutiny as other forms of communication. However, the ease in which a person can keep their identity secret frequently poses a problem for finding a responsible party. Recent trends indicate that the owners and operators of on-line services will sometimes be held liable for what is placed on their services. Recent case law in the United States considering the liability of owners and operators of on-line services for items posted upon bulletin boards exemplify the evolving area of computer law. The courts have looked upon on-line libel with an eye upon traditional libel law and also recognizing the uniqueness of on-line circumstances.

The liability of the owners and operators of on-line systems for the posting of defamatory statements depends on whether they are considered by the courts as a distributor of information or a publisher of information. These two categories, publisher and distributor are treated differently in traditional libel law. The distributor of information, such as libraries, newsstands, bookstores, telephone and telegraph operators are not normally held liable. Publishers, such as newspapers and publishing houses are held responsible for the materials that they print. (Internet and the Law, p. 164). Thus, in the Internet world, if the accused is considered to be a distributor, then no liability will be found unless the individual had personal knowledge of the contents of the material. However, if the operator or owner is considered to be a publisher, then liability will be found.


http://www.law.buffalo.edu/Academics/co ... olland.htm

B. GREAT BRITAIN
The problem of libel on the Internet is not solely an American problem. Recent events in England indicate that libel lawsuits for materials placed upon the Internet are becoming more common. For example, a libelous article about the Prime Minister and a fashionable London caterer placed on the Internet, resulted in a lawsuit against the "Scallywag". The case was settled when Scallywag promised to never repeat the libel again and with the understanding that republishing the material would be considered contempt of court, and punishable by imprisonment. (*Caught in a web of curiosity*, David Rennie, The Daily Telegraph, p. 29.) (emphasis added)



Libel suits for material placed upon the Internet promises to be an exciting and volatile area of law. The methods that different countries currently use to resolve libel issues will have varying rates of effectiveness, and should be viewed closely as new legislation is developed to more handle the growing number of Internet libel cases.


At least two cases of threatened legal action have occurred here. What the owners/operators of this board need to consider is that as these laws further develop, it's quite possible that retroactive defamation suits could occur. Absolute free speech is not a good idea. Moderated free speech is. Even parliaments have "moderators" and a member can be ejected or suspended for breaking the rules. Having more moderation would encourage more posters here. I fear that this ideal of absolute free speech, which on the surface seems a noble one, could end up being very costly for some people in the future. It's only a matter of time. And we already have one developing case, that of Bob McCue.