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Homosexual couples can't eternally increase. So goes one of the common LDS rationales against gay marriage. Could the development of the male womb remove this all-important barrier? Or, alternatively, will it just intensify the bigotry due to how "unnatural" it is?

CaliforniaKid wrote:Homosexual couples can't eternally increase. So goes one of the common LDS rationales against gay marriage. Could the development of the male womb remove this all-important barrier? Or, alternatively, will it just intensify the bigotry due to how "unnatural" it is?

That second thing.

CaliforniaKid wrote:Homosexual couples can't eternally increase. So goes one of the common LDS rationales against gay marriage. Could the development of the male womb remove this all-important barrier? Or, alternatively, will it just intensify the bigotry due to how "unnatural" it is?

The answer is no. Technology cannot Trump eternal truths. This would imply (and don't you secualar libs just relish the prospect) that morality is nothing but a function of social and technological constraints, and has no intrinsic value as a value.

And of course, what you are here terming bigotry is just an attack word aimed at conservatives to justify your own unreflective bigotry against them.

Coggins7 wrote:The answer is no. Technology cannot Trump eternal truths. This would imply (and don't you secualar libs just relish the prospect) that morality is nothing but a function of social and technological constraints, and has no intrinsic value as a value.

Which eternal truths, Cogs? Mormonism teaches that morality is a function of whatever God says it is (see Joseph Smith's letter to Nancy Rigdon, for example). If the prophet said tomorrow that he had received a revelation (and the Twelve had concurred) to the effect that homosexual marriage and copulation were approved of God, you and most other members of the church would accept that, would you not? After all, if the prophet can't lead the church astray, whatever he said would have to be from God, right? I know, you're just going to say that God would never do that, but that's what people used to tell me about the priesthood ban.

And of course, what you are here terming bigotry is just an attack word aimed at conservatives to justify your own unreflective bigotry against them.

And your hurling it back at Chris is what? an attempt to justify your own unreflective bigotry against "secualar libs"?

CaliforniaKid wrote:Homosexual couples can't eternally increase. So goes one of the common LDS rationales against gay marriage. Could the development of the male womb remove this all-important barrier? Or, alternatively, will it just intensify the bigotry due to how "unnatural" it is?

As DCP and other LDS apologists have explained to us, we don't know everything about God. For example, how did Heavenly Father impregnate the "virgin" Mary? While old-time LDS prophets taught us that this was done in the "normal" fashion, DCP and others have suggested Celestial Artificial Insemination as an alternative method. Further, Mopologists typically state that there might be other, totally unheard of and heretofore unimagined means of impregnating a human being.

That said, within this modern LDS apologetic paradigm, it seems perfectly reasonable, and certainly within doctrine as it is understood by Mopologists, that Heavenly Father might allow homosexuals to possess wombs. After all, we are taught in the Church that all of us will be "perfect" on the other side of the veil, and further, that we each get to determine our own notion of "perfection." Therefore, it follows logically that any faithful gay LDS who desires a womb by way of "perfection," will have this wish granted.

Chris, the current "accepted theory" among the Mormon community, at least from what I'm hearing, is that those born with homosexual tendancies are no different than those born with other disabilities. It is all part of God's great plan. Just as an autistic child must stuggle every day with his/her disability, so must a homosexual. When they die, as with any disabled person, they will "become whole". Homosexual attraction will no longer be a problem.

Which eternal truths, Cogs? Mormonism teaches that morality is a function of whatever God says it is (see Joseph Smith's letter to Nancy Rigdon, for example). If the prophet said tomorrow that he had received a revelation (and the Twelve had concurred) to the effect that homosexual marriage and copulation were approved of God, you and most other members of the church would accept that, would you not? After all, if the prophet can't lead the church astray, whatever he said would have to be from God, right? I know, you're just going to say that God would never do that, but that's what people used to tell me about the priesthood ban.

Whatever Joseph said to Nancy Rigdon, in a letter, settled Church doctrine teaches that God is a God of law; he obeys Gospel laws himself, and it was in this way he attained his exaltation. I know of no official or unofficial teachings that make the claim that God initiated or originated the truths and principles of the Gospel, or their present relation to mortals on earth.

The Priesthood ban is a large unknown as to its origin, and no GA I'm aware of has ever said such, or that it was not, for some reason, approved or initiated of God for some reason. Its easy to confuse the ban itself with the theoretical explanations for it. Homosexuality is part of that class of "abominations" within he realm of human sexuality that are perennially forbidden by God to human beings as a matter of principle. There is no "homosexuality" ban in the Church except to the extent that sin is banned, thought we are free to practice what we will in this life, pending the consequences of our choices in eternity.

And your hurling it back at Chris is what? an attempt to justify your own unreflective bigotry against "secualar libs"

I have no "bigotry" against liberals, I simply understand who and what they are after a life time of experience and reflection. My views on homosexuality were formed in the same manner. Unlike most liberals, I can articulate my opposition intellectually, and need not engage in emotional antics to make points that I cannot substantiate in the marketplace of ideas. What really bothers liberals is precisely that most conservative opposition to the Gay rights agenda is, indeed, based upon principle, not bigotry, and this empties they're only mode of expressing their own views: chanting, waving signs, and calling conservatives motivations into question, of any gravity it might have had.

As DCP and other LDS apologists have explained to us, we don't know everything about God. For example, how did Heavenly Father impregnate the "virgin" Mary? While old-time LDS prophets taught us that this was done in the "normal" fashion, DCP and others have suggested Celestial Artificial Insemination as an alternative method. Further, Mopologists typically state that there might be other, totally unheard of and heretofore unimagined means of impregnating a human being.

And how, we must wonder, was Scratch created? One of the standard B horror or Sci Fi scenarios must hold our answer. Nuclear radiation? Toxic waste? Genetic manipulation? The Necronomicon?

We await the awful revelations to come...

That said, within this modern LDS apologetic paradigm, it seems perfectly reasonable, and certainly within doctrine as it is understood by Mopologists, that Heavenly Father might allow homosexuals to possess wombs. After all, we are taught in the Church that all of us will be "perfect" on the other side of the veil, and further, that we each get to determine our own notion of "perfection." Therefore, it follows logically that any faithful gay LDS who desires a womb by way of "perfection," will have this wish granted.

It also follows that mental illness of this kind may be amenable to treatment, but that this may require institutionalization.

The first step, is admitting you have a problem. The first stage is denial, then anger...

Chris, the current "accepted theory" among the Mormon community, at least from what I'm hearing, is that those born with homosexual tendancies are no different than those born with other disabilities. It is all part of God's great plan. Just as an autistic child must stuggle every day with his/her disability, so must a homosexual. When they die, as with any disabled person, they will "become whole". Homosexual attraction will no longer be a problem.

This is a circular argument, as there is not a shred of evidence in the brain sciences that homosexuality is inborn or genetic in origin in any simple cause/effect manner. I'm not sure the Church has any "accepted theory" at all. The origins of homosexual ideation and feelings, which are that which generate the behavior, is a complex of bio/psycho/social components that cannot be disentangled from one another to produce a "cause".

Try again scottie.

Coggins7 wrote:

Chris, the current "accepted theory" among the Mormon community, at least from what I'm hearing, is that those born with homosexual tendancies are no different than those born with other disabilities. It is all part of God's great plan. Just as an autistic child must stuggle every day with his/her disability, so must a homosexual. When they die, as with any disabled person, they will "become whole". Homosexual attraction will no longer be a problem.

This is a circular argument, as there is not a shred of evidence in the brain sciences that homosexuality is inborn or genetic in origin in any simple cause/effect manner. I'm not sure the Church has any "accepted theory" at all. The origins of homosexual ideation and feelings, which are that which generate the behavior, is a complex of bio/psycho/social components that cannot be disentangled from one another to produce a "cause".

Try again scottie.

I never said "the church". I said "the Mormon community", which is MUCH different than the church.

But, ok, lets say mental illness. We know that there are biochemical as well as environmental factors that contribute to mental illnesses. LDS believe that when we are resurrected, part of our perfect body will be no mental illnesses.

The church views homosexuality as an illness, plain and simple. They have programs in place to "cure" you of your gayness. Therefore, my point still applies.