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Strange apologetic argument at MADB

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:09 pm
by _SatanWasSetUp
Over at the other board there is a stange discussion on anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. They seem to be saying that if something in the Book of Mormon was anachronistic in the 1820s/30s, then it's a good thing for the Book of Mormon because it means Joseph Smith didn't write it himself. Here are some examples:

In what ways would the text of the Book of Mormon have been seen as at odds with what was known about the Americas? Were descriptions about the people and things that existed similar to those by Ethan Smith and Josiah Priest?

Very good question. I as well would be interested to know. It seems to me that if so many things were detailed out so well why would some stupid things (to us) be thrown in there like steel. Maybe they seemed just as unlikely in those days as now. If so, that would look good for Joseph.


and

I remember once reading a quote from one of the Witnesses who said that they were afraid people would not believe the book because the cities, technology, and civilization were too incredible to be believed. I can't remember who it was or when, I just remember something along those lines.


If I understand the argument, the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon aren't a problem if people thought they were a problem in Joseph Smith's time. In other words, if the book sucked as much in 1830 as it does today, it must mean it was true. I've never heard this argument before. It's the flip side of "how could a dumb farm boy write a book as complex as the Book of Mormon?" Now we have the anachronisms are so bad in the Book of Mormon, not even a dumb farm boy could screw up that bad, therefore there is no way he could've written it.

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:02 pm
by _beastie
Sadly for this pathetic argument, texts contemporary to Joseph Smith also reflected the same sort of anachronisms. One example is Solomon Spalding's Manuscript Story:

"Corn, wheat, beans, squashes, & carrots they raised in great abundance. The ground was plowed by horses & generally made very mellow for the reception of the seed.” (chapter V)



“As the whole of this parade indicates no flight of Elseon & Lamesa, we might now view them, with their select company of friends setting out on a short journey. All mounted on horses, they rode about twenty miles to a village were they halted. An elegant supper was provided. They were cheerful & sociable, none appeared more so than Elseon & Lamesa. The next day Elseon requested the company of his dear cousins a short distance on his journey. When they had rode about two miles they halted & proposed to take their leave of each other. Lamesa & her friend without being perceived by the company rode on. It was a place where the road turned & by riding one rod they could not be seen. The rest of the company entered into a short conversation & passed invitations for reciprocal visits & friendly office. They then clasped each others hands, & bowing very low took an affectionate farewell. But where are Lamesa & her friend? During these ceremonies their horses moved with uncommon swiftness, her heart palpitates with an apprehension that she might be overtaken by her brother. But now a friend more dear, her beloved Elseon, with his companions, outstrip the wind in their speed, & within one hour & half they overtake these fearful damsels. They all precipitate their course casting their eyes back every moment to her pursuers.” (chapter XI)


Reality is that these were very common misunderstandings about ancient America during Joseph Smith' time period.

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:23 pm
by _Scottie
Yeah, on Mighty Curelom's thread about tight vs loose translation methods, I mentioned that Cumom and Curelom could only be translated using a tight translation, to which LeSellers replied:

Actually, these are strong evidence of the validity of the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Ether was a most interesting composition. Originally, it was a redaction of some sort by Ether of the history of his people, the Jaredites. Most of whom had died centuries before Ether did his editorial work. Cureloms and cumons were mentioned only when Emer was king. Emer was, by my count, the fifth king of the Jaredites. It seemed that the Jaredite kings made their youngest sons kings, which meant that their reigns were quite long, so let's say they were 0 years on average.

Even so, that makes it only 250 years from the tower of Babel to the Cureloms, many centuries before Ether. It is more than possible that both Cureloms and Cumons were extinct by the time he was compiling the history. If so, Ether would not have known what they were. Certainly Moroni didn't a millennium later when he wrote his abridgment of Ether's abridgment.

So, what do you do, as a translator, when there is no word in the target language for a noun given in the source language, and for which there is no way to identify what the word should or could be? You simply transliterate, sound-for-sound and get "cureloms" and "cumons".

Their names' being in the Book of Mormon is not like the dozens (or hundreds) of personal names that exist nowhere else. The people in the Book of Mormon had to exist for there to be a story to tell. But there is no reason for cureloms to exist in the book, there is no requirement that cumoms lived among the Jaredites. The account would have been every bit as intriguing without them.

Their mere existence in the account is explained only by there having been animals with names like that. And the names themselves are so odd as to be compelling.


Oh, right. So, since they are in the book, it makes it MORE plausible?? Huh??

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:11 am
by _ludwigm
The best comment I have ever read about the translation of the Book of Mormon was:
It is good that we don't have the original. This excludes the endless debate about the "more correct" translation of the words and sentences.

(I don't remember the name or the place, but I did read this.)

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:12 pm
by _Dr. Shades
Believe it or not, I've read the same argument. It, too, took place on MA&D back in the day.

I think it was the "Shiz struggling for breath after his head had been lopped off" incident. As now, the argument went, "The story is so ludicrous that Joseph couldn't possibly have been dumb enough to make that up. So it's evidence of the Book of Mormon's authenticity!"