The Real Hell of Mormonism

[_Yoda]

On Scratch's thread about the LDS concept of hell, I posted the following:

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I have not read all six pages of this thread, so if someone else has covered this, I apologize. Here is my take on the LDS concept of Hell that I was taught growing up as a Church member:

I'll break down the three categories that Scratch laid out here:

--Spirit Prison: This is a temporary "waiting place". Since resurrection is a gift given to all by the Savior, all of us, saints and sinners, will be resurrected. Those who are judged worthy for Terrestrial and Celestial glory will await resurrection in Paradise. They will be at rest. Those who are judged worthy of Telestial glory will be in Spirit Prison.

--Outer Darkness: This is where the Sons of Perdition dwell. Only those who have a full and complete understanding of the gospel and deny Christ himself will dwell here. Outer Darkness is most closely comparable to the EV description of Hell (wailing, gnashing of teeth, etc.).

--Telestial Kingdom: Murderers, rapists, serious sinners will dwell here. However, since God is merciful, the Telestial Kingdom is still a kingdom of glory. Joseph Smith once commented that if one were to see the Telestial Kingdom, they would commit suicide to go there. (No, I don't have a citing or documentation for this quote. For all I know, it could be a Mormon urban legend, but this is something I heard often growing up.).

The Terrestrial Kingdom, or "middle kingdom", is where most people will end up. This is the kingdom where people will dwell who have committed minor sins, etc. I was always taught that there would be more Mormons in this kingdom than any other. We as members have more responsibility because we were taught the gospel here. We are held accountable at a greater level than non-members. Non Church members will be taught the gospel in the next life, and if they accept it, will be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. I never really thought this was fair. I thought, "Gee, why couldn't I just be a non-member? Then I could be given a little more slack, and still accept the gospel in the next life. Doesn't seem fair!"

The Celestial Kingdom is where everyone really wants to be, but you have to be almost perfect to get there. This is the only place where you can dwell with your family, and with God.

For me, and I think for most Mormons I knew growing up, the Terrestrial Kingdom was the real Hell. Living eternity knowing that you were given the gospel in this life, and you just couldn't quite measure up. You spend eternity not being able to be with your family, and be a servant to those who are deserving of a "far greater glory".

No wonder so many Mormons are depressed, and dealing with perfection anxiety. *sigh*

I would like to take the discussion in a slightly different direction than Scratch's thread, and focus on this middle kingdom aspect of hell.

Did anyone else who grew up in the Church fear this middle kingdom as much as I did? There were many times when I just felt like "why bother?" I felt like I was going through the motions for nothing. I was always going to screw up, so more than likely, I wasn't going to be with my family, anyway, and would end up in that dreaded "middle ground".

Is this just the weird perfectionist in me coming out from being a musician and feeling like everything has to be perfect, or did others feel this way, too?

[_GoodK]

On Scratch's thread about the LDS concept of hell, I posted the following:

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I have not read all six pages of this thread, so if someone else has covered this, I apologize. Here is my take on the LDS concept of Hell that I was taught growing up as a Church member:

I'll break down the three categories that Scratch laid out here:

--Spirit Prison: This is a temporary "waiting place". Since resurrection is a gift given to all by the Savior, all of us, saints and sinners, will be resurrected. Those who are judged worthy for Terrestrial and Celestial glory will await resurrection in Paradise. They will be at rest. Those who are judged worthy of Telestial glory will be in Spirit Prison.

--Outer Darkness: This is where the Sons of Perdition dwell. Only those who have a full and complete understanding of the gospel and deny Christ himself will dwell here. Outer Darkness is most closely comparable to the EV description of Hell (wailing, gnashing of teeth, etc.).

--Telestial Kingdom: Murderers, rapists, serious sinners will dwell here. However, since God is merciful, the Telestial Kingdom is still a kingdom of glory. Joseph Smith once commented that if one were to see the Telestial Kingdom, they would commit suicide to go there. (No, I don't have a citing or documentation for this quote. For all I know, it could be a Mormon urban legend, but this is something I heard often growing up.).

The Terrestrial Kingdom, or "middle kingdom", is where most people will end up. This is the kingdom where people will dwell who have committed minor sins, etc. I was always taught that there would be more Mormons in this kingdom than any other. We as members have more responsibility because we were taught the gospel here. We are held accountable at a greater level than non-members. Non Church members will be taught the gospel in the next life, and if they accept it, will be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. I never really thought this was fair. I thought, "Gee, why couldn't I just be a non-member? Then I could be given a little more slack, and still accept the gospel in the next life. Doesn't seem fair!"

The Celestial Kingdom is where everyone really wants to be, but you have to be almost perfect to get there. This is the only place where you can dwell with your family, and with God.

For me, and I think for most Mormons I knew growing up, the Terrestrial Kingdom was the real Hell. Living eternity knowing that you were given the gospel in this life, and you just couldn't quite measure up. You spend eternity not being able to be with your family, and be a servant to those who are deserving of a "far greater glory".

No wonder so many Mormons are depressed, and dealing with perfection anxiety. *sigh*

I would like to take the discussion in a slightly different direction than Scratch's thread, and focus on this middle kingdom aspect of hell.

Did anyone else who grew up in the Church fear this middle kingdom as much as I did? There were many times when I just felt like "why bother?" I felt like I was going through the motions for nothing. I was always going to screw up, so more than likely, I wasn't going to be with my family, anyway, and would end up in that dreaded "middle ground".

Is this just the weird perfectionist in me coming out from being a musician and feeling like everything has to be perfect, or did others feel this way, too?

I remember being told that those in the middle kingdom would be in HF's presence, but unable to see him or communicate with him. I was also told that Jesus would visit those in the middle kingdom, but not those in the lower kingdom.

I haven't thought about this again probably until just now, so I'm not to sure how official-doctrine-based the above is, but I remember very clearly being taught that growing up.

[_Yoda]

remember being told that those in the middle kingdom would be in HF's presence, but unable to see him or communicate with him. I was also told that Jesus would visit those in the middle kingdom, but not those in the lower kingdom.

I haven't thought about this again probably until just now, so I'm not to sure how official-doctrine-based the above is, but I remember very clearly being taught that growing up.

Yes. I was taught that God the Father and Jesus dwelled in the Celestial--that Jesus was the steward over the Terrestrial, and would serve as a go-between between the inhabitants there and God the Father--and that the Holy Ghost would be the steward over the Telestial. And yes, Christ would administer to those in the Telestial as well.

I was also taught that those who lived in the Celestial Kingdom could visit others in the lower kingdoms, but not the other way around.

[_Scottie]

I was in your same boat, Liz.

The whole "God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of tolerance" weighed heavy on me during my adolescence. That, combined with my masturbation "problem", caused me no end of unnecessary and extreme guilt.

So, since I couldn't stop doing what is the most natural thing in the world, I figured, "Why bother". I had no qualms about having sex with a girl, because sex and masturbation were both sexual sins in my mind, and carried the same weight of punishment. Since I couldn't stop the one, I might as well go ahead with the other. It's not like I would be condemned any more than I already was.

[_Yoda]

Thanks for your response, Scottie.

Did your attitudes get worse or better after you were married?

I know that after I got married in the temple, the twinge of not being able to measure up increased. In the back of my mind, there was always this image of losing my husband, losing my children if I didn't dot every i and cross every t.

I have a hard time believing that Heavenly Father really wants us to live like this.

Thoughts?

[_Sam Harris]

[snip!]...if I didn't dot every I and cross every t.

I have a hard time believing that Heavenly Father really wants us to live like this.

Thoughts?

Heavenly Father DOESN'T want us to live like this. I remember that prison. I hated it, I hated myself for being in it, I hated myself for putting myself in it, I hated myself for not being able to get out, I hated those who felt they could rule over me in it, I hated those who seemed to fare better than me in it. I hated God for supposedly erecting the construct.

Then I learned better and stepped out. And I'm in the world of "I don't really know, but it's ok..." and I'm far more comfortable now. It's the end of the day and I have to go, but I'll type more later.

Hugs,

Samantha

[_Yoda]

[snip!]...if I didn't dot every I and cross every t.

I have a hard time believing that Heavenly Father really wants us to live like this.

Thoughts?

Heavenly Father DOESN'T want us to live like this. I remember that prison. I hated it, I hated myself for being in it, I hated myself for putting myself in it, I hated myself for not being able to get out, I hated those who felt they could rule over me in it, I hated those who seemed to fare better than me in it. I hated God for supposedly erecting the construct.

Then I learned better and stepped out. And I'm in the world of "I don't really know, but it's ok..." and I'm far more comfortable now. It's the end of the day and I have to go, but I'll type more later.

Hugs,

Samantha

I know exactly what you mean. At this point, I'm just trying to do the best I can to be the best person I know how to be. I'm far from perfect, but I try to be honest with others. I love my family, my friends, and do my best to be supportive of them. I'm responsible at work, and also with my Church calling. I truly enjoy what I do in both of these aspects, which helps.

But the past few years, I've really concentrated on striking a balance between Church, work, and family that is healthy for me both physically and emotionally. And those limits don't always look like they "conform to the party line". ;)

[_Scottie]

Thanks for your response, Scottie.

Did your attitudes get worse or better after you were married?

I know that after I got married in the temple, the twinge of not being able to measure up increased. In the back of my mind, there was always this image of losing my husband, losing my children if I didn't dot every I and cross every t.

I have a hard time believing that Heavenly Father really wants us to live like this.

Thoughts?

It did get better after I was married, but the emotional damage was done. I had felt so incredibly guilty for so long that my brain, as a self defense mechanism, had shut off that emotion.

I will fight tooth and nail to make sure my son knows that the church will try and teach him that it is bad, but it's not. Hopefully he will listen to me and not them.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Liz...

Here was my hell...

The CK, the most wonderful holy of all places, where God dwells was simply in my opinion, a horrible place. I could not image it as a place where I would want to be, EVER.

I found myself often overwhelmed with the sorrow that the very best place I could hope to be, would be a place I find disgusting beyond belief.

My mother who converted in her thirties, and was married to my amazing agnostic father, upon her death would to be given to some other man in the CK, while my wonderful, incredibly devoted, loving father would be someplace else, alone.

And, I as a child, with parents unsealed, even if I made it to the highest kingdom, would be left without my family.

EVEN if I, my siblings and mother made it to the CK, I would not be with them. As a child this doctrine was truly as sick as I can imagine.

Even to write this brings up horrible memories of my struggle with this doctrine. Children worry enough about their families, and these disturbing teachings created a lot of pain and heart wrenching sorrow in my early life.

~dancer~

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Being a god is an eternal desk job, managing worlds, wives, and such.
I'd aim for the middle kingdom, it sounds much more like an eternal vacation.