DiscussMormonism.com

Maybe I finally got my wish. I posted on the Joseph marrying 14 year old girls thread.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... opic=33838

Wow. You know you’re making sense and harming testimonies when…when they say that you are “disrespectful”, ban you and completely ignore your logical and reasonable questions that point to a severe case of ‘reasonable doubt’ for Joseph Smith acting under the direction of the God of heaven and Earth.

This was what my last post would have been…

Reformed_Egyptian wrote:

Mola Ram Sua Ram wrote:Wow, dude you missed the whole point. Lol. That is funny. Trying to hard to jump to a conculsion that fits your agenda I see.

Not really, I do see that part of this discussion is the fact that 14-15 year old women (girls) did legitimately marry for love and happiness and it was legal etc.

It was also legal for Joseph to marry 12 year olds at the time too…is that a ‘point’?

Maybe I am missing the point, the ‘point’ however on this board, from my observation is a very quick moving thing, but that’s ok, I used to talk and think and even attack the questioner whilst ignoring the questions and their ‘relevance and meaning’ just like most here.

I think the silence on my points and questions speaks volumes.

My agenda: to find answers other than: ‘don’t look, don’t think, don’t know, don’t care.’

My wife is starting to earnestly dig for these answers, on these specific issues…all she can find for answers so far is:

- don’t look at this anti stuff (even though it’s sold in BYU bookstores and through Deseret Books)

- don’t think about what it means (there are ‘no answers’…well, other than it’s perhpas not ‘true’…and that can’t be the answer so the answer must be ‘there are no answers, well find out after we die, just let it rest’)

- don’t know…if you don’t look and don’t think about the issues, then you won’t ever know that there’s a problem…see, ignorance is bliss.

- don’t care…you can’t care about issues you think are not issues due to your NOT looking, NOT thinking and NOT knowing…and should you feel a twinge of ‘this is an issue’, just let it slide, put it in the ‘well find out when we die’ pile and rely on your spiritual experiences and feelings.

The issues demand critical thinking…and answers…if our eternity hinges on the answers, it’s valid to ask the questions and to think and to investigate.

Scottie wrote:Did the mods posts a reason for the banning?

Skylla wrote:

Reformed_Egyptian wrote:To me the issue isn't whether Joseph COULD marry a 14 year old girl...the issue is why would the God of Heaven and earth need Joseph, at age 38-ish I believe, to marry a girl 24 years younger than him?

And a 15 year old and a 16 year old (all apparently who were 'goodly' to look at). Though he legally could have married her, he also could have legally married her if she was 12 with parents permission too...would that too have been 'right' and 'without issue'?

The fact of the matter is, yes, you can find 14 year old girls marrying 38 year old men back in the day (but RARELY and it was extremely uncommon)...the issue (to me) being that this marriage is the only one we know of where God Himself is 'revealing' the necessity of it to a 14 year old girl through a 38 year old 'prophet'.

Why would he need to promise her eternal salvation if she'd comply? (And by inference and taking that to it's logical conclusion, a LACK of eternal salvation if she did NOT comply -- is that truly 'free choice' to a 14 year old girl...being approached by the charismatic leader and prophet who speaks for God?).

Why would the God of Heaven and Earth have to tell Helen Marr Kimball that the eternal salvation of not only her, but her entire family and extended family, depended upon her complying? (And by inference and taking that to it's logical conclusion, a LACK of eternal salvation for herself, for her immediate and her extended family if she did NOT comply -- again, is that truly 'free choice' to a 14 year old girl?).

Why would her parents (father) have to pressure her?

Why the pressure of 'eternal salvation' being given as a 'reward' for compliance?

Today Joseph would have been arrested for being a predatory pedophile, that is fact (in this particular case, due to all of the collusion and pressures brought to bear on Helen which could be seen to be predatory in nature, as well as the fact that he was in a position of power, authority and trust over her).

If we say Joseph was just acting on his own, then we're saying God didn't reveal to Joseph that he needed to marry 14, 15 and 16 year old girls, and therefore the whole angel with the sword story is made up (that was the pressure brought to bear on the 19 year old Rigdon girl, and others) and he was just acting as a man. And if acting just as a man, then he was not acting as a prophet, and if not acting as a prophet while saying he was indeed acting as a prophet and following inspiration and revelation, then...well...you know what that means. 1+1=2, not 3.

To me it's very clear that Joseph used pressure and highly predatory tactics to marry these young girls (and also the wives of already married men -- not all needed obvious outward pressure tactics to comply true, but some did...should there even be 'some'? Like, sending your apostle husband away on a mission and marrying you while he's gone, and apparently getting you preggers too whilst he was away? Would the God of Heaven and Earthy really be behind that?).

I used to be able to say it didn't matter and that back in the day young girls got married early. But if you read the accounts and view it with eyes towards 'why would God need to do this'...you find that God wouldn't have needed to do this and that Joseph acted on his own...and that, unfortunately (or fortunately) for many, leads to serious questions and doubts.

Then I read D&C 132 v. 41 and found that women, in the celestial order of things, can sleep around with more than one husband if they're sealed to them (if not sealed to the additional men, THEN, and only then, is it adultery)...and that was the nail in the coffin of my celestial marriage testimony...it's one great big celestial orgy...and I suppose if the women can make themselves appear to be 14 year olds in heaven, the men have it made in the shade.

Incredible...that I used to think this all made sense and there were no issues with it.

We are not going to tolerate disrespectful posts like this. Thread closed.

Skylla