I'm a dogmatic "a-demonist".

[_Tarski]

I don't believe in demons or demonic possession. I am really dogmatic about it. I demand evidence of a definite kind or all bets are off. I also think that the world would be better off if no one believed in such.
I hope this dogmatism doesn't lead me to become the next Pol Pot or Stalin. [\end humor]

[_asbestosman]

Daemons are responsible for sending email among other things. They may just be software daemons and they may be created by humans, but I swear they possess computers running *nix.

[Guest]

Tarski,

Would you be in favour of banning the practice of 'exorcism'?

[_Moniker]

Tarksi,

Would you be in favour of banning the practice of 'exorcism'?

I would be -- where people really believed that there was a demon in them. I've read of accounts where children were killed because they were literally TORTURED by those that thought there were demons in them. I knew a guy in my early 20's who had epilepsy... he was from Arkansas and his congregation (backwoods) surrounded him on a routine basis to lay hands on him and attempt to rid him of this demon. Needless to say when I met him he was a rather angry atheist...

That was mild compared to some other treatment that others get. I don't mind watching it in horror movies -- it needs to stay in fiction, and people need to be reminded it is ONLY fictional.

[_Ren]

I would be -- where people really believed that there was a demon in them. I've read of accounts where children were killed because they were literally TORTURED by those that thought there were demons in them. I knew a guy in my early 20's who had epilepsy... he was from Arkansas and his congregation (backwoods) surrounded him on a routine basis to lay hands on him and attempt to rid him of this demon. Needless to say when I met him he was a rather angry atheist...

No doubt all you've mentioned above is hideous, dangerous and needs to be gone. (I'm interested in the second case whether scientific medical attention was neglected - that would be an important detail for me...)

But now imagine the following scenario:
A child starts to behave in a severely worrying way (i.e. not just acting out etc.)
At first, the parent doesn't jump to the 'demon' explanation at all. The child is look at by modern scientifically proficient medical experts. All modern methods are used to attempt to help the child.

But - after all that modern help can do, the child is still 'not OK'.

The parent has a belief in spirits, and doesn't rule out the possibility of 'demons'. Given this belief - as a last resort - she asks for an exorcism from a 'reputable' priest.

...harmful, or not harmful? Dangerous or not dangerous? Should be banned, or shouldn't be?

[_truth dancer]

Absolutely agree!

I think Satan is the excuse for our selfishness, ego issues, and less than "holy" desires. ;-)

in my opinion, not only does it inhibit one from looking within to overcome or heal their particular challenges, (face their shadow), it thwarts true healing.

For example, I now a woman who believes (as do many), that depression is a tool of Satan. The cure? Go to the temple, get a blessing, fast, pray harder and more diligently.

An abusive man? He is under the influence of Satan, so go to the temple, pray harder, repent, get a blessings.

An addicted teenager? Under the influence of Satan, and friends who are influenced by Satan. She needs to fast, pray, get a blessings.

No looking into the real issues; no concern for what is going on in one's life; no professional help for the authentic problems/challenges/difficulties. (I do think this is changing to some degree as people realize that prayer and a blessing doesn't seem to be as effective as professional help, nonetheless, I still hear folks blaming Satan for pretty much everything).

I seriously think this Satan idea is an unhealthy myth... while it may have been the popular and accepted explanation for autism, dementia, and mental health illness for a few thousand years, I think in this modern time we can dismiss it for what it is and move into reality.

~dancer~

[_Ren]

No looking into the real issues; no concern for what is going on in one's life; no professional help for the authentic problems/challenges/difficulties. (I do think this is changing to some degree as people realize that prayer and a blessing doesn't seem to be as effective as professional help, nonetheless, I still hear folks blaming Satan for pretty much everything).

I seriously think this Satan idea is an unhealthy myth... while it may have been the popular and accepted explanation for autism, dementia, and mental health illness for a few thousand years, I think in this modern time we can dismiss it for what it is and move into reality.

When the 'real issues' are ignored, and professional, materialistic medical help is denied, then it is undeniably harmful.
No argument there...

[_Tarski]

Tarski,

Would you be in favour of banning the practice of 'exorcism'?

I would discourage belief in it.
Remember, Dawkins, Dennett et al are not proposing to ban religion. They are just trying to get as many people in society as possible convinced of the falsehood and dangers of religious belief. It's not a legal campaign.

It may be appropriate to bring criminal charges under certain conditions.

1. Forced exorcism.
2. Withholding of needed medical attention.
3. Harm done to the recipient during the process.
etc.

[_CaliforniaKid]

I would be -- where people really believed that there was a demon in them. I've read of accounts where children were killed because they were literally TORTURED by those that thought there were demons in them. I knew a guy in my early 20's who had epilepsy... he was from Arkansas and his congregation (backwoods) surrounded him on a routine basis to lay hands on him and attempt to rid him of this demon. Needless to say when I met him he was a rather angry atheist...

No doubt all you've mentioned above is hideous, dangerous and needs to be gone. (I'm interested in the second case whether scientific medical attention was neglected - that would be an important detail for me...)

But now imagine the following scenario:
A child starts to behave in a severely worrying way (I.e. not just acting out etc.)
At first, the parent doesn't jump to the 'demon' explanation at all. The child is look at by modern scientifically proficient medical experts. All modern methods are used to attempt to help the child.

But - after all that modern help can do, the child is still 'not OK'.

The parent has a belief in spirits, and doesn't rule out the possibility of 'demons'. Given this belief - as a last resort - she asks for an exorcism from a 'reputable' priest.

...harmful, or not harmful? Dangerous or not dangerous? Should be banned, or shouldn't be?

Frankly, under such conditions exorcism might act as a helpful placebo. I've known people for whom exorcism seemed to work, as a cathartic exercise if nothing else. But I agree that's there's a great danger of medical conditions being mistaken for "possession" and going untreated, too.

[_Moniker]

I would be -- where people really believed that there was a demon in them. I've read of accounts where children were killed because they were literally TORTURED by those that thought there were demons in them. I knew a guy in my early 20's who had epilepsy... he was from Arkansas and his congregation (backwoods) surrounded him on a routine basis to lay hands on him and attempt to rid him of this demon. Needless to say when I met him he was a rather angry atheist...

No doubt all you've mentioned above is hideous, dangerous and needs to be gone. (I'm interested in the second case whether scientific medical attention was neglected - that would be an important detail for me...)

But now imagine the following scenario:
A child starts to behave in a severely worrying way (I.e. not just acting out etc.)
At first, the parent doesn't jump to the 'demon' explanation at all. The child is look at by modern scientifically proficient medical experts. All modern methods are used to attempt to help the child.

But - after all that modern help can do, the child is still 'not OK'.

The parent has a belief in spirits, and doesn't rule out the possibility of 'demons'. Given this belief - as a last resort - she asks for an exorcism from a 'reputable' priest.

...harmful, or not harmful? Dangerous or not dangerous? Should be banned, or shouldn't be?

Oookay, I had a knee jerk! This is why no one should give me a red button or a magic wand. I thought about kids and get spastic. :)

Obviously there can be some instances where the beliefs, and just going through the motions, may not cause harm. I suppose. Yet, just this thought that there ARE demons in people seems harmful to me. Why? I'm not certain! I usually don't get too upset about nutso beliefs but this one REALLY strikes me as being WAAAAAY out there and potentially harmful. Of course something being potentially harmful does not make it always harmful. I just see this as a belief that we could really do without as a society and world.

Even beyond just the medical problems with not treating people... seems that someone that felt that actions are done because someone is possessed can result in what? I could foresee all sorts of complications with this mindset. It's bad enough that we have humans that look upon others as being less than human -- add onto that the thought that there are actually EVIL supernatural forces at play in the world... Ack! This one freaks me out! I think we need to get people as grounded as possible and recognize that humans are responsible for human behavior -- not some outside force that is twisting us about like pieces in a chess game. The entire proposition that we're all pawns in some game for supernatural entities (and this is what this belief IS!) creeps the hell out of me.