What is baptism without confirmation? What about Joseph Smith and OC?

[_asbestosman]

Today in priesthood, we talked about the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood and of baptism. It made me think of a question (which I think was posed here before): why weren't Joseph and Oliver confirmed and given the gift of the Holy Ghost afterwards as members today are. Yes, I realize that the church had not yet been restored, however isn't confirmation tied with baptism? What is baptism without confirmation? What is taking of the bread without partaking of the water in sacrament? Is the baptism invalid without confirmation? When John baptized Jesus, who confirmed Jesus? What was John's baptism without confirmation?

By the way, I do know of an almost convert on my misison who got baptized but never showed up for his confirmation.

[_Tidejwe]

By the way, I do know of an almost convert on my misison who got baptized but never showed up for his confirmation.

I had a convert actually do that too! They were baptized Saturday and going to be confirmed Sunday but they never showed up and disappeared for a few weeks. Finally they came back weeks later, but they had "sinned" (Chastity) between the baptism and the time they had come back to be confirmed. We weren't sure what to do about it and called the Pres.

Regarding the Joseph Smith case though...before I answer, let me point out something in 3rd Nephi. First, in chapter 7 a bunch of people were baptized. Then at the end of the chapter, we see that Nephi even "ORDAINED" people, etc and they baptized more people. So here we assume Nephi had Authority to Baptize (Hel.10 says Nephi even had the Sealing Power)? Then in 3Nephi11, the Lord returns and calls Nephi forward (v18) and tells him that He is NOW giving Nephi Authority to baptize people (v21), and in subsequent chapters, EVERYONE is baptized all over again even though they were baptized 4 chapters ago by Nephi who supposedly already had the Sealing power, but not Authority to baptize so they had to be baptized again? Or so it seems to suggest.

Some speculate that they were baptized in Chapter 7 for remissions of sins (v23-25) and were baptized again later on to be baptized and confirmed a member of the newly organized church since a "New Law" or "New dispensation" of sorts was beginning. Similarly people argue this is why Joseph and Oliver were not confirmed the first time. they were baptized for remission of sins, then they were baptized a second time after the church had been organized to become members of the church.

BY and lots of early saints used to be baptized multiple times for symbolic reasons of renewing covenants, and remission of sins, etc. Later leaders rejected this practice saying that was the point of the sacrament.

[_Inconceivable]

Originally, bestowal of the Holy Ghost was the primary purpose for this sacred ordinance - not to confirm someone a "member" of a church.

"Confirm" is one of those terms in mormonianity that has altered the meaning and true purpose of a simple ordinance.

[_Tidejwe]

What is taking of the bread without partaking of the water in sacrament?

Which reminds me, there was a period in church history where Brigham wouldn't let anyone take the sacrament for several weeks or months. How did this affect people? Does the sacrament really matter? Does it actually DO something or is it just completely symbolic and figurative but not actually necessary? Is this the same with all ordinances? Are they just figurative and symbolic or are they somehow "magical" in the sense that they really DO something by some weird law of physics we don't understand? :)