Misogyny and the Male LDS mindset

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:43 pm

Spinoff of Harmony's thread, so it doesn't get too derailed...

I noticed this a lot when I was a member, this attitude towards women who weren't virgins, for whatever reason. There was something wrong with us. Heaven forbid we would have been abused, STAY AWAY! Sex is already a taboo in the church, but let your issue be of a sexual nature, you can almost forget your happy forever after in the LDS church.

I'm glad that I learned to let go of those sexual hangups. I will not give my putty to whoever, but I'm not going to be ashamed of being a grown ass woman. If Steve wants to smack it, flip it, rub it down, and pat it back in place, WE ARE GROWN! We pay the bills!

Nehor made an off the wall comment about women who cheat on their husbands with regards to this post I made:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 627#135627

His actual response was this:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 631#135631

I want to know why some LDS men think this way. HOW did cheating women get equated with a woman who might have been abused sexually, who might even be confused about her body, about sex, about relationships and love in general? Nehor, you need to read Woman, Thou Art Loosed by TD Jakes. He touches very well on this issue, and freed me from the mentality that you so ineloquently espoused. I'm no whore. I will NEVER cheat on my husband, because I grew up with the other woman, grew up with her child (AND the child of yet another woman) and had to learn to love them all, no less.

What is it with the attitude of men towards women in the LDS church that makes them think that unless the lightswitch marked "sex" is in the off position until the wedding night, there is something fundamentally wrong with the woman?

When I was LDS I hated myself and my body. I wished every day that I was a virgin. I wished even more that I was a white girl. I strove towards the temple, thinking that once I had that recommend, I would be pure, that the men in the church would look at me differently, that I'd finally get a date, I'd be "beautiful" in their eyes.

I remember my endowment. So many of the men from my singles ward were there, and they were so happy to see me there. But did that wipe the "harlot" from off my forehead? NO! It stayed there until I left the church and wiped it off myself.

The greatest disservice I ever did to myself was to allow another human being to define me. To let someone else declare me dirty. I'm glad I escaped from that. But I feel for the women still trapped in that mentality. And it makes me angry when I see men who DO NOT POSESS A CLUE making statements like the one above. I'm grateful for my man who would never hold his past (his wife had another man's child) or his biases (he loves me enough to drop them as hard as it may be) against me. Learning to trust is one thing, looking at a woman and deeming her a whore because of who hurt her is another, and completely wrong.

Post by **_The Nehor** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:01 pm

I think I explained my comment in the other thread and that I was not equating abuse with promiscuity. I was using promiscuity as an example to contrast Christlike love with romantic interest.

It would probably be fair to define my reluctance to pursue a relationship with someone who has been abused as an issue. It is an issue that comes from bad past experiences.....like most issues.

Post by **_Jason Bourne** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:07 pm

I think it is rooted in the teaching the sexual sin is 3rd worst sin and next to murder. I think it is rooted in the constant barrage LDS youth get about sex and stying pure. The idea that the greatest gift one can give their future spouse certainly drives this. Talk after talk from my youth and even today though not near as heavy emphasize that virtue/virginity is to be prized almost above anything at all. Talks that state a parent would rather see a child in a coffin than lose their virginity before marriage tend to create a mind set that a person who had sex with someone else before marriage is really damaged and even though one may repent virginity can never be restored. Comments that if a girl is being raped she should fight to even the death to keep her virtue intact certainly cast a taint even on someone who is raped or abused.

I am all for keeping sex in marriage. But frankly these types of teachings need the be dumped. They are very bad and can be harmful.

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:07 pm

Like I said in telestial, to expect to go into a relationship with no baggage whatsoever is unrealistic. And also, I personally appreciate it when in discussion, when a person espouses their own views, or at least states that they're putting forth the views of another, instead of making it seem like such an extreme view is their own. This is not the first time you've done this. And it's not funny. This is a sensitive subject.

It is true that two half persons do not make one whole person. But everyone has secret hurts, Nehor. Think how much more f'ed up this world would be if there were no love between people to heal those hurts, no people who were brave enough to look in the abyss beside the person who has had to face those hurts since the initial injury...

Weekend before last while I was sick, I lay on the edge of a nightmare. As a child I used to have terrors that would have me waking up screaming at the top of my lungs. I could never tell you what I dreamed about, and I still cannot. All I remember was tossing and turning in a sweat, gasping for air, and I was aware of my boyfriend next to me, watching me. I've been told it's a very frightening thing to watch me like that. I can wake up and not know you, I can run from you, strike at you, scream some more.

He just watched, waited for me to wake, and held me. But perhaps he's just that strong...who knows? I don't think he's any stronger than any average man, but I believe in human potential...until you take yourself out of the game, that is.

Point is, I've more than shown my neuroticism this past month.Hell, this whole six months he's been chasing me. I could be single right now. I'm not. Someone was strong enough within themselves to see something good in me.

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:08 pm

Lovely thread GIMR, I'm glad you don't deal with that anymore.

The greatest disservice I ever did to myself was to allow another human being to define me. To let someone else declare me dirty.

I understand.

Post by **_The Nehor** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:14 pm

Sam Harris wrote:Like I said in telestial, to expect to go into a relationship with no baggage whatsoever is unrealistic. And also, I personally appreciate it when in discussion, when a person espouses their own views, or at least states that they're putting forth the views of another, instead of making it seem like such an extreme view is their own. This is not the first time you've done this. And it's not funny. This is a sensitive subject.

It is true that two half persons do not make one whole person. But everyone has secret hurts, Nehor. Think how much more f'ed up this world would be if there were no love between people to heal those hurts, no people who were brave enough to look in the abyss beside the person who has had to face those hurts since the initial injury...

I can agree with this. I have things in my past that still sting just like everyone else. I don't expect to find anyone free of this. However, I want someone I can help and who can help me.

Let me add one more thing to the list. I will not pursue a relationship with someone who is too sensitive to cope with my odd humor. I think I'm going to die alone ;)

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:14 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:I think it is rooted in the teaching the sexual sin is 3rd worst sin and next to murder. I think it is rooted in the constant barrage LDS youth get about sex and stying pure. The idea that the greatest gift one can give their future spouse certainly drives this. Talk after talk from my youth and even today though not near as heavy emphasize that virtue/virginity is to be prized almost above anything at all. Talks that state a parent would rather see a child in a coffin than lose their virginity before marriage tend to create a mind set that a person who had sex with someone else before marriage is really damaged and even though one may repent virginity can never be restored. Comments that if a girl is being raped she should fight to even the death to keep her virtue intact certainly cast a taint even on someone who is raped or abused.

I am all for leeing sex in marriage. But frankly these types of teachings need the be dumped. They are very bad and can be harmful.

Bourne, I'm glad you're of the generation that respects sex in marriage (as do I, I'm all for fidelity), but realizes that if a a person enters the marriage bed with some "prior experience" it isn't the be-all and end all. It shouldn't be a shaming thing.

Post by **_Ren** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:22 pm

I've mentioned before that I don't really relate to some of these outlooks. Some of what Jason has listed - for example - I recognise. Some, however, I'd never heard of at church.

A parent stating that they would rather see a child in a coffin than lose their virginity before marriage...?!
If a girl is being raped, she should feel obligated to fight to her death...?!

Both sound like sheer lunacy to my ears - even placing myself back in my TBM mentality.
I don't recognise these notions. But unfortunately, I've seen too much smoke to assume there is no fire here. I think I may well have to admit there is some cultural difference here based on my location, that leaves me in a little ignorance.

We didn't pay much heed to caution on inter-racial marriage over here either. My mum's English and my Dad is Indian after all. And this was back in the early 70's...
When I discussed this at MAD, some were wondering what 'problems' I was hiding! What I wasn't 'admitting'...

It's horrible to hear such notions. And it's horrible to think that people have had (and continue to...) live amongst them... :/

Maybe the church has affected my outlook somewhat. I don't feel I've ever been judgmental - in or out of the church...
But naïve? Because of my LDS upbringing? Yeah - sure. I think that shoe may well fit. (Unfortunately...)

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:29 pm

Hey Ren!

I think that the culture of the church outside of the U.S. is definitely starkly different. When you get past those who want to be Utah Mormons, you actually find some pretty cool people who are just trying to live their beliefs as best they can.

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:30 pm

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:
We didn't pay much heed to caution on inter-racial marriage over here either. My mum's English and my Dad is Indian after all. And this was back in 1974...
When I discussed this at MAD, some were wondering what 'problems' I was hiding! What I wasn't 'admitting'...

It's horrible to hear such notions. And it's horrible to think that people have had (and continue to...) live amongst them... :/

Yes! Yes! Yes! This thought that people that are "different" really are off or something is really wrong is seen all the time. WTF??? It's nuts!