DiscussMormonism.com

Some semi-random thoughts:

It seems to me that if I declare that I believe in a lizard god who I do not take to be literally all powerful then from the point of view of most Abrahamic religions, I am essentially an atheist. From the point of view of these religions, I just don't believe in God. Well, what about a mammal god, a kind of super ape that has limitations like not being able to be in more than one place at a time? Does that count as belief in God? Is it essentially atheism?
I think most Christians would, if they thought about it, agree that it is just as bad as atheism even if it isn't atheism in some pedantic dictionary sense.

So what kind of atheism is it that is dangerous? What kind of atheism breeds guys like Stalin?
What kind of god beliefs help protect us from Stalinesque atrocities?
Is it enough to believe in any kind of god? What if I accept the Bible but my interpretation of it says that God was really an alien whose powers were godlike by man's standards?

Another question. What if I believe in a god but think that everything is made of matter, even god? Remember Joseph Smith said that spirit was just a more refined form of matter. Is that materialism? Gee, Joseph Smith was a materialist whose idea of God was a super mammal with a creaturly form and certain definite limitations.


What is the real enemy for people who think atheism is evil or dangerous? Is it the lack of magical or supernatural thinking that is really the scary part? Is it the hard nosed, show me the evidence attitude that is so fearful?

Tarski wrote:What is the real enemy for people who think atheism is evil or dangerous? Is it the lack of magical or supernatural thinking that is really the scary part? Is it the hard nosed, show me the evidence attitude that is so fearful?

I think it's the fear that atheists lack ultimate accountability because they might be able to do things either when nobody is watching or when nobody can stop them.It may also be the fear of a lack of unifying or ultimate guidance, direction, and purpose for life.

A third fear is that of being different. Catholic and Protestant Christians in Ireland have demonstrated this although this may be ethnic and cultural as much as it is religious.

asbestosman wrote:

Tarski wrote:What is the real enemy for people who think atheism is evil or dangerous? Is it the lack of magical or supernatural thinking that is really the scary part? Is it the hard nosed, show me the evidence attitude that is so fearful?

I think it's the fear that atheists lack ultimate accountability because they might be able to do things either when nobody is watching or when nobody can stop them.It may also be the fear of a lack of unifying or ultimate guidance, direction, and purpose for life.
.

Then it's ironic because there is nothing unified or unifying about religion. Further, judging from the behavior of religious people, even priests, it seems like the being watched thing doesn't help much.

Tarski wrote:Then it's ironic because there is nothing unified or unifying about religion. Further, judging from the behavior of religious people, even priests, it seems like the being watched thing doesn't help much.

Religion is unifying if we all believe the same thing. Maybe if we all believe we need to pray towards Mecca then we'll finally be unified. Whether that's desireable is another question. Furthermore, It may be that religions tend to agree on moral issues more than atheists agree with a particular religious position (abortion, homosexuality, fornication / adultery).

Maybe the priests weren't true believers because we know that no true Scotsman would . . .

More realistically, maybe the feeling of being watched isn't a 100% correlation--maybe it's merely a great influence that works on most but not all people and it may be important enough that we'd want it there just as we make seatbelt laws, and laws against smoking in public buildings or about the use of asbestos.

I think the "being watched" thing is interesting. I grew up with it (Mormonism), and there is always this vague concept of the constant observer. We were taught that "He" was always watching, but we would never really see him. We would "feel" his presence (and that concept has always led to an extremely wide spectrum of interpretations), and as long as we "felt" the same things that our leaders told us were right, we were "in tune with the spirit," yada, yada, yada....

Well, then when I became confident that the Mormon claims were false, I came to doubt "His" presence at all. It was strange to believe I had the freedom to do whatever I wanted -- without fear of retribution, and in many ways that got me into trouble for a time.

So I became forced to re-evaluate my moral compass with an attitude consistent with my sig line below, and found what worked for me was to approach life as if we are all one organism. I learned that this is not unique...eastern philosophies are consistent with it, and I found that with that attitude, and living the Golden Rule (the extent of my "religion" today), ethics and morals made perfect sense. If there is some kind of higher source, it seems that I have as much access to "it" as anybody else...and to consider that "It" is in my heart, I guess you could say that "It" is watching...and is always there.

It works quite well for me today.

BishopRic wrote:So I became forced to re-evaluate my moral compass with an attitude consistent with my sig line below

Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche


I would have translated Überzeugungen as convictions, but I admit that I speak Dutch not German although they are fairly similar. Also, Babelfish agreed with me.

Anyhow, I think convictions are more dangerous than certainty because I am certain that 1 + 1 = 2 (following axioms). I don't, however, have a conviction that it's necessarily some fundamental neo-platonic truth to it. I think it's more a tautologly or true by definition and nothing more. Tarski would probably disagree.

asbestosman wrote:More realistically, maybe the feeling of being watched isn't a 100% correlation--maybe it's merely a great influence that works on most but not all people....

Being watched is highly erotic for some people. Priests and others who are also into exhibitionism might secretly enjoy the idea that God is watching.

Tarski wrote:What is the real enemy for people who think atheism is evil or dangerous? Is it the lack of magical or supernatural thinking that is really the scary part? Is it the hard nosed, show me the evidence attitude that is so fearful?

Good questions. The other night, my wife insisted that she is not an atheist (like me). So what does she believe in? She doesn't know, just not atheism. I do believe it's the lack of supernatural thinking that makes atheism hard for her. In a similar vein, we've had a couple arguments about whether or not to buy loads of "Airborne" to protect us from the common cold. Recently my hard nosed-show me the evidence attitude was vindicated by 60 Minutes. I think I'm right about god as well, but it's not worth fighting over as long as god remains a free placebo in our home.

The Dude wrote:

asbestosman wrote:More realistically, maybe the feeling of being watched isn't a 100% correlation--maybe it's merely a great influence that works on most but not all people....

Being watched is highly erotic for some people. Priests and others who are also into exhibitionism might secretly enjoy the idea that God is watching.

Tarski wrote:What is the real enemy for people who think atheism is evil or dangerous? Is it the lack of magical or supernatural thinking that is really the scary part? Is it the hard nosed, show me the evidence attitude that is so fearful?

Good questions. The other night, my wife insisted that she is not an atheist (like me). So what does she believe in? She doesn't know, just not atheism. I do believe it's the lack of supernatural thinking that makes atheism hard for her. In a similar vein, we've had a couple arguments about whether or not to buy loads of "Airborne" to protect us from the common cold. Recently my hard nosed-show me the evidence attitude was vindicated by 60 Minutes. I think I'm right about god as well, but it's not worth fighting over as long as god remains a free placebo in our home.

I'm with your wife on this one. If we take the set of all belief systems {Judaism, Mormonism, Jainism, Taoism, atheism,...}. Then this is the set of things that I don't believe in.

John Larsen wrote:I'm with your wife on this one. If we take the set of all belief systems {Judaism, Mormonism, Jainism, Taoism, atheism,...}. Then this is the set of things that I don't believe in.

You got me! The way I said it, atheism is something a person can "believe in". In fact, my wife's comment was: "I'm not an atheist like you."

As one who rejects belief systems, are you an atheist John?

I may be wrong, but I have a hard time believing that theists really believe that atheism makes people engage in all sorts of horrific behavior. I know they use that as a debate point, but it's so - well - stupid - that it's hard for me to believe that even they believe it.

I actually think that the thing that really bugs theists about atheism is that they think atheists present themselves as intellectually superior, and view theists as buffoons. I think it's defensiveness. And certainly some atheist responses theism smack of condescension. But it's very hard to avoid that, when theists often present truly ridiculous arguments.