BCSpace's loophole in 2 Nephi 2:22 - my response

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_Sethbag
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BCSpace's loophole in 2 Nephi 2:22 - my response

Post by _Sethbag »

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.


Ok, this is the basis of BCSpace's "loophole", that he imagines gets LDS doctrine out of the bind it's in in light of what science has now demonstrated about the Earth's natural history.

His argument is that evolution, life and death, etc. existed in the world for hundreds of millions of years, and that that is part of the process of "creation", and that at some point, "creation" was finished, and things that existed at that time entered a new phase of Earth existence, the post-Creation period.

I must make a point here about the use of the word "created". Note that the verse in 2 Nephi does not refer to some catch-all concept of "Creation"; it refers to the creation of actual things. "All things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created." Thus, the creation spoken of is an individual act on a per-item basis. The things in existence, to which this doctrine applies, were all "created".

The language of this verse cannot be used to justify the "creation" of a concept such as "homo sapiens". Rather, each individual homo sapiens, and indeed each of everything else in existence at the time, is individually created.

BCSpace acknowledges that Adam would have descended from a line of homo sapiens which had already existed for into the hundreds of thousands of years. Adam had a mother and father, four grandparents (or fewer if the Garden of Eden were actually in Arkansas or West Virginia instead of Missouri), eight great-grandparents, etc. He might well have had cousins, even brothers and sisters. But at the very least, we know that Adam and Eve each would have had a father and a mother.

According to BCSpace, Adam would have been born into a world which had not yet been "created". He has to make this distinction, because "creation" was a process which was still on-going at the time, and had not yet been completed, nor could be until Adam came along.

So, Adam's parents, before Adam's birth, had not been created. Adam's grandparents had not been created. The dogs his tribe domesticated (hypothetical - go with me here) had not been created. The wheat, or corn, or barley, or whatever they were farming had not been created. The deer, or tapirs, or horses, or aurochs, or sheep, or whatever they herded or hunted, had not been created.

The wooly mammoths had not been created. The sabre-tooth tigers had not been created. The Clovis "Indians" had not been created. The Asians had not been created, yet they crossed the Bering Strait 12-15,000 or so years ago and formed the groups of "others" that would eventually submit to the religion and rule of some Israelite refugees that showed up one day.

You get the picture. None of the dinosaurs, the plants, the animals, etc. that were in existence of the past hundreds of millions of years had been or ever were "created".

And all of this was because Adam, a homo sapiens, born of homo sapiens parents, part of a line of homo sapiens going back over a hundred thousand years, ushered in somehow the completion of the "creation" process.

At some point subsequent to the passing of Adam as a human infant from his mother's uterus, through her birth canal and out into an as-yet uncreated world, all things became "created".

At this point, according to LDS teaching, nothing could have had blood flowing through its veins. Nothing was dying. Nothing could procreate. These are all attributes of what LDS doctrine holds to be the "created" state prior to Adam's Fall, and 2 Nephi 2: 22 backs this up, as you can read in the verse quoted above.

When was this distinction between "created" and "not yet created" resolved? At Adam's birth? I think we must assume, in the absence of any reasonable alternative, that Adam and Eve didn't make their world-changing decisions, and become husband and wife, at the age of one day old. Adam would have been an infant, growing up in a world filled with life and death, hunting, gathering, perhaps farming, herding, etc. If his parents were still living, they would have been different from Adam in that they would not have been possessed by spirit children of Heavenly Father, but their son Adam was. Adam would have been raised by non-God-children homo sapiens. He would have learned to speak from non-God-children homo sapiens. He would have been suckled at the teets of a non-God-child homo sapiens mother.

Will BCSpace argue that Adam's birth represented the moment at which "creation" was complete, and suddenly all things, including Adam's parents, other relatives, animals, etc. all instantly were transformed into bloodless, immortal, non-reproduction-capable Celestial beings? That the normal processes and activities of human life all over the world were suddenly, at Adam's birth, suspended by the massive interuption caused by the sudden disappearance of blood and death, and reproduction, of all living things?

And that this state of interuption of natural life as it had theretofor been known lasted however many years it took for Adam to grow old enough to be able to "fall" together with Eve in the Garden of Eden?

And then, suddenly, Adam bites into a piece of fruit, or if that's too literal, Adam performs some act for which the eating of the fruit stands as a metaphor, and suddenly everything reverts back to the exact same patterns of life, death, reproduction, etc. that had been used to prevail before everything and everybody were suddenly "celestialized" at the completion of "creation"?

Can we not all see how arbitrary, and non-sensical this view is? We know that trillions and trillions of living things came about and died in the many millions of years prior to the timeline of Adam, and yet none of these living things which were born, lived, ate, crapped, had sex, and died, had ever been "created"?

Is it not obvious that BCSpace's attempt to use the "after they had been created" perceived loophole in 2 Nephi is utterly, totally, and completely arbitrary, essentially meaningless in light of the reality of our world, and invented in his own mind for the sole purpose of providing an "out" for LDS doctrines and teachings in light of the harsh reality of things as they actually, really did occur?

Of this there cannot possibly be any doubt. BCSpace will comfort himself in the belief that he has not been refuted, a view to which he will hold by virtue of his own definition of the terms in question. It's his game, his rules, his definitions, and therefor he cannot possible lose - he has defined himself the victor, and with the power to invent meaning and define terms in whatever way he wants, he will not be convinced that he has "lost" this argument. That's fine. BCSpace, you go right on convincing yourself that your religion is still really "true", convince yourself that you have found what LDS Prophets for the last 170 years failed to do, ie: reconcile LDS teachings with the fruits of modern science, and so forth. It's your own virtual reality inside of your head. Enjoy it. It's your right.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

Ok, this is the basis of BCSpace's "loophole", that he imagines gets LDS doctrine out of the bind it's in in light of what science has now demonstrated about the Earth's natural history.


Yes. They were created into a state of no death. That is the final result, but the question remains how were they created and what were the properties of that prior creative state during which they were being created? Since there is no doctrine on the matter, evolution can fit just fine within the bounds of LDS doctrine.

In Sethbag's rant above, he makes some assumptions about LDS doctrine which he has made before but has been hard pressed to find official statements or verses for. There is a reason why he doesn't reference his claims. It's because he can't.
Machina Sublime
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_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

So you admit that, by your theory, Adam and Eve were born to homo sapiens parents who had not been created? You admit that the Asians who originally peopled the American continent had not been created at the time they came over? The people who originally populated Australia 40,000 years ago had not been created? Indeed, you agree that by your definitions, none of the dinosaurs were ever created? None of the trilobites and other ancient life forms we find in the fossil record were ever created? Adam's own grandparents, aunts, uncles, and other tribemembers who existed prior to his birth had likewise not been created?

Do you agree that the resolution of the "creative" state, to the "created" state, must, in light of the teachings of the LDS prophets, have involved some sort of transition from normal life processes as we know it including life, death, and reproduction, to a state where no blood flowed through veins, and nothing died, nor reproduced? And that this transition must have necessarily applied to all things whose "creation" was finally completed?

Do you imagine a dichotomy of existence where a non-created world, filled with non-created plants, non-created animals, and non-created homo sapiens, was suddenly altered by the entrance of a new class of beings that were "created", and thus radically different than all such who had gone before? Did these non-created and created beings co-exist in time, or were all things that existed at that point altered to a state of "created"?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

So you admit that, by your theory, Adam and Eve were born to homo sapiens parents who had not been created?


No. Homo sapiens likely had already been created. When God saw all was right, he place Adam into the Garden. There is no reason to believe, in LDS doctrine, that evolution stops.

You admit that the Asians who originally peopled the American continent had not been created at the time they came over? The people who originally populated Australia 40,000 years ago had not been created? Indeed, you agree that by your definitions, none of the dinosaurs were ever created? None of the trilobites and other ancient life forms we find in the fossil record were ever created? Adam's own grandparents, aunts, uncles, and other tribemembers who existed prior to his birth had likewise not been created?


Not at all. This is where you have no basis in LDS doctrine for your claims.

Do you agree that the resolution of the "creative" state, to the "created" state, must, in light of the teachings of the LDS prophets, have involved some sort of transition from normal life processes as we know it including life, death, and reproduction, to a state where no blood flowed through veins, and nothing died, nor reproduced? And that this transition must have necessarily applied to all things whose "creation" was finally completed?


Again, no. Evolution continues apace. Yes, there is no death for an undefined period of time. Then the Fall, again, no definite date. Adam is indeed the first flesh (mortal) on the (created) earth.
Machina Sublime
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_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

I can't make heads or tails out of what BCSpace is saying.

BC can you make out a toy model timeline? What was happening at 1000,000 BC, 100,000 BC, 20,000 BC, 10,000, 5,000, etc.

Also, I don't see that evolution is even compatible with the idea of something being "completed" or "finally created".

Look, what evolved was creatures subject to death! That's how our bodies evolved. We have those bodies now and we had them 100,000 years ago.
There is no end product of evolution and even if there was it would never be a deathless body.

Also, what evidence is there of more than one world? You need this two world thing because of the statement that there was no death in the world before Adam. You asked me before "which world?". I answer, this world--the one where evolution has been continually acting.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

bcspace wrote:
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

Ok, this is the basis of BCSpace's "loophole", that he imagines gets LDS doctrine out of the bind it's in in light of what science has now demonstrated about the Earth's natural history.


Yes. They were created into a state of no death. That is the final result, but the question remains how were they created and what were the properties of that prior creative state during which they were being created? Since there is no doctrine on the matter, evolution can fit just fine within the bounds of LDS doctrine.

In Sethbag's rant above, he makes some assumptions about LDS doctrine which he has made before but has been hard pressed to find official statements or verses for. There is a reason why he doesn't reference his claims. It's because he can't.


Hey BC,

Could you elaborate on what Sethbag got wrong? Where he misrepresents your opinion/belief on this? Is his summary of your position about right?

Just out of curiosity, do you think your belief is in line with the beliefs of the Brethren?

Thanks,

~dancer~

Edit... I posted this without reading the last couple of posts. Basically, Tarski's questions resemble my own.

I'm just totally confused. ;-)
Last edited by Bing [Bot] on Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_John Larsen
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Post by _John Larsen »

As far as I am concerned, BC can believe whatever he wants. However, it is not Mormon doctrine or anything like unto it. He's happy, great. But it doesn't help the Mormon cause any.
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

bcspace wrote:
So you admit that, by your theory, Adam and Eve were born to homo sapiens parents who had not been created?

No. Homo sapiens likely had already been created. When God saw all was right, he place Adam into the Garden. There is no reason to believe, in LDS doctrine, that evolution stops.

This is nonsensical. Homo sapiens could not have been "created" before the birth of Adam, as LDS teachings hold that the "created" state was one of immortality, no blood, and no reproduction. Nothing could have been "created" prior to Adam's birth, by your arguments. Things could only have been "created" at earliest at the time of Adam's birth (if he were the last living thing born prior to the Fall) or at some subsequent period during his life.

You admit that the Asians who originally peopled the American continent had not been created at the time they came over? The people who originally populated Australia 40,000 years ago had not been created? Indeed, you agree that by your definitions, none of the dinosaurs were ever created? None of the trilobites and other ancient life forms we find in the fossil record were ever created? Adam's own grandparents, aunts, uncles, and other tribemembers who existed prior to his birth had likewise not been created?

Not at all. This is where you have no basis in LDS doctrine for your claims.

This is wrong. We know that the original American inhabitants were living, dying, hunting, killing things, reproducing, etc. well before the Biblical timeline of Adam. By the LDS teachings of the state of things "created" before the Fall, none of these activities (except living) should have been possible by "created" things prior to the Fall.

The basis of your whole loophole is that the creative process was still in flux, and had not yet been completed prior to some change associated with Adam's arrival on the scene. 2 Nephi 2:22 clearly sets some limitations on how things could have been for things that had been created. Are you backtracking now, and admitting that some things had already been "created" before Adam's arrival on the scene, and yet were dying, killing, reproducing, etc.?

Do you agree that the resolution of the "creative" state, to the "created" state, must, in light of the teachings of the LDS prophets, have involved some sort of transition from normal life processes as we know it including life, death, and reproduction, to a state where no blood flowed through veins, and nothing died, nor reproduced? And that this transition must have necessarily applied to all things whose "creation" was finally completed?

Again, no. Evolution continues apace. Yes, there is no death for an undefined period of time. Then the Fall, again, no definite date. Adam is indeed the first flesh (mortal) on the (created) earth.


Continued evolution is spectacularly incompatible with the LDS concept of the created, pre-Fall state. If you refuse to acknowledge the teachings such as that there was no blood, no reproduction, etc., then you're stuck with a world that goes from "not created" to "created" with no apparent actual difference in the way things were. It's an utterly and completely arbitrary designation, useful only for getting LDS theology out of a jam.

Again, you're playing word games here. You try to use 2 Nephi 2:22 to allow LDS teachings to still be "true", and yet those teachings clearly intended to convey an actual meaning, and it's completely undermined by your insistence that things actually were about the same during the pre-Fall state as they had been for millions of years, and as they are now.. This is clearly not what LDS prophets taught. And what they taught was clearly wrong.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
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