DiscussMormonism.com

I saw the movie "Happy Valley" last night. You can read up on it here:

http://happyvalleythemovie.com/

I believe my friend Ron Williams has hit a grand slam with this documentary. It shows with heart-wrenching interviews, the devastation and extent of drug abuse in this state. A few statistics it discusses:

* prescription drug abuse is the highest in the country;

* suicide rates are among the highest in each age category;

* anti-depressant use is twice the national average;

The obvious question he attempts to answer is...Why?

I think he does a good job of interviewing a few LDS members trapped in the addiction world that explain their process. They explain the obvious, that there is much denial about the problem, and very little willingness to communicate with family members about their reasons for using.

in my opinion much of the problem comes from a two-faced approach to the professed principle of unconditional love. From the pulpits, it is taught and encouraged. In the trenches of the community, it is not lived. Anybody who strays from the cultural norms of belief or lifestyle is judged and avoided as if they have the plague. This lack of acceptance leads to chemical abuse to have some degree of "feeling good" about themselves. The progression of the addiction cycle often leads to overdoses, particularly in the younger people that don't understand the possibility of death of a prescription pill can cause.

On his blog, Ron quotes a response from a local bishop:

"This film begins as a critique of Utah (Mormon) culture and how the very religion that gives its inhabitants postive family values positively leads them to hide deep problems and indulge in private addictions–especially prescription drug abuse. Shocking statistics are announced throughout the film about Utahns and drug abuse, and part of this film wants to be an expose. Luckily it does not follow that track as vigorously as the down-to-earth and painful stories of various families and individuals victimized by drugs. I’m all for bringing attention to real problems, but the film plays fast and loose with its statistics and their interpretation...

(sounds like MAD apologetics to me!)

...Nor was there any acknowledgment whatsoever of the tremendous efforts made both locally and generally by the LDS Church to address addictions of all sorts and to provide social services for their treatment. Not only is the problem addressed frankly and frequently from a spiritual vantage point by church leaders

(I'll tell you, their approach is not adequate, or effective most of the time)

...So it was a bit hard for me to watch the cheap shots at Mormons (as though the faith does more to produce addicts than to significanty prevent and meaningfully heal addictions)."

(in my opinion, that is a correct statement. As one who dealt with addiction, the church had much to do with it. You've got to bury your head in the sand to think otherwise.)

I highly recommend this movie, if it is available in your area!

I remember reading in the LA Times a few years ago about prescriptions given in Utah. They said they were the highest in the Country and double the second leading state - North Dakota. Of course when I posted that at MAD the attacks came forth. Once again, I'm glad things that I read and posted about are again being expressed.

BishopRic wrote: From the pulpits, it is taught and encouraged. In the trenches of the community, it is not lived.

And this is the leaders' fault why?

in my opinion much of the problem comes from a two-faced approach to the professed principle of unconditional love. From the pulpits, it is taught and encouraged. In the trenches of the community, it is not lived. Anybody who strays from the cultural norms of belief or lifestyle is judged and avoided as if they have the plague.

AMEN!

Just from witness of some LDS and some ex-LDS on these two boards the entire concept of unconditional love, tolerance, and mercy is SEVERELY lacking!

How can you tell people to love one another when you set them up into a competition to be the perfect one that gets to the CK? That there is tremendous pressure to adapt to fit desired norms, that deviance is not allowed, and that the outside world is full of "EVIL", vile sinners -- don't wanna be one of THOSE! Converts are looked at askew 'cause who knows what they have been up to! Apostates are evil!

I see people being ridiculed, mocked, derided, and treated horrendously on these boards. People are frickin RUDE to each other and it astonishes me. It's not enough to merely ignore, or look away, the entire intent is to PUBLICALLY humiliate those that are "different" -- CONTROL MECHANISM! Public shame is to CONTROL behavior! It's no wonder people hide away what problems they may be encountering. What a nightmare!

Moniker wrote:

in my opinion much of the problem comes from a two-faced approach to the professed principle of unconditional love. From the pulpits, it is taught and encouraged. In the trenches of the community, it is not lived. Anybody who strays from the cultural norms of belief or lifestyle is judged and avoided as if they have the plague.

AMEN!

Just from witness of some LDS and some ex-LDS on these two boards the entire concept of unconditional love, tolerance, and mercy is SEVERELY lacking!

How can you tell people to love one another when you set them up into a competition to be the perfect one that gets to the CK? That there is tremendous pressure to adapt to fit desired norms, that deviance is not allowed, and that the outside world is full of "EVIL", vile sinners -- don't wanna be one of THOSE! Converts are looked at askew 'cause who knows what they have been up to! Apostates are evil!

I see people being ridiculed, mocked, derided, and treated horrendously on these boards. People are frickin RUDE to each other and it astonishes me. It's not enough to merely ignore, or look away, the entire intent is to PUBLICALLY humiliate those that are "different" -- CONTROL MECHANISM! Public shame is to CONTROL behavior! It's no wonder people hide away what problems they may be encountering. What a nightmare!

I'm trying to see how this whole thing is the leaders' fault. If, from the GC pulpit (which is where the leaders instruct the members), the leaders are preaching love thy neighbor, be kind to others, etc., how is it their fault when the members don't do it? That the members aren't doing it is the reason they're preaching it in the first place (we don't get many pats on the back in GC. We always know what problems are widespread in the church; it's what the talks are about in GC).

What you see here and other places (MAD, etc), with LDS posters mocking, deriding, ridiculing others is a clear manifestation of LDS members behaving badly. That is not the norm, in my experience. It may be the norm here; it is not the norm in the real world. Members may ignore each other, even shun ex-members (as in KA's situation), but mocking, deriding, ridiculing in the real world like is done here? No. Not at all the same.

harmony wrote:
I'm trying to see how this whole thing is the leaders' fault.

I don't know that it is. Yet, when you have a system set up that everyone must jump through certain hoops to make it to the CK -- that seems to be quite a bit of pressure. More than individual pressure, you must get your whole family there as well! There is confessions of "sin", withholding of sacrament (in public) for those that are naughty, people are excommunicated for sin, being told that someone fornicating is equivalent to murder doesn't seem to put "sins" on a scale. This, I would think, creates extreme pressure for everyone to live up to expectations -- those that fall behind embarrass their family and the Church. That the LDS Church thinks God cares about APPEARANCE is as shallow and ridiculous in the department of controlling members and thier lives as one can get. No one twitters at those that don't wear the spiffy clothes? I bet they do! That the Church believes they hold the "truth" and must go out and convert others is in and of itself showing a disdain (though I'm sure they don't think of it in those terms) for other cultural norms, beliefs, and traditions. We are "special" 'cause we know the "truth"! This thought that only we hold the "truth" and have special knowledge certainly does elevate some of those that believe it. You can't judge? The entire religion is set up on the premise that the founder thought all the other denominations were false is JUDGING.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

The entire religion is based on that, it seems! You can't have Jesus teaching tolerance and love and then juxtapose that with those that think they must go and convert others to the "truth" 'cause they are part of the false Churches (corrupt and an abomination!)where those two ideologies don't conflict!

If, from the GC pulpit (which is where the leaders instruct the members), the leaders are preaching love thy neighbor, be kind to others, etc., how is it their fault when the members don't do it? That the members aren't doing it is the reason they're preaching it in the first place (we don't get many pats on the back in GC. We always know what problems are widespread in the church; it's what the talks are about in GC).

I think the Church recognizes some of these problems, such as gossip. Yet, when you have a way to publically embarrass people through denying sacrament, and through public humiliation set up WITHIN the Church structure of course this doesn't pan out to be loving.

What you see here and other places (MAD, etc), with LDS posters mocking, deriding, ridiculing others is a clear manifestation of LDS members behaving badly. That is not the norm, in my experience. It may be the norm here; it is not the norm in the real world. Members may ignore each other, even shun ex-members (as in KA's situation), but mocking, deriding, ridiculing in the real world like is done here? No. Not at all the same.

I see nothing wrong with shunning. I don't know why everyone is acting like that's a bad word. To shun means to deliberately avoid. I deliberately avoid all sorts of people. It's doing it publically to embarrass them is where the problem lies. This is taught in the Church community and it carries over (I have no doubt) for some of those that leave.

Moniker wrote:I see nothing wrong with shunning. I don't know why everyone is acting like that's a bad word. To shun means to deliberately avoid. I deliberately avoid all sorts of people. It's doing it publically to embarrass them is where the problem lies. This is taught in the Church community and it carries over (I have no doubt) for some of those that leave.

A couple of things: there are several reasons why a person may not take the sacrament on any given Sunday. Church discipline is only one. To assume that the reason why Bro A didn't take the sacrament is because he's under church sanction is not something that is taught from the pulpit. If we're going to hold the leaders responsible for Mormon culture (which I agree can be wickedly judgmental), then we're going to have to see exactly what the leaders say, and I can honestly say I've never seen them instruct the members to shun, the judge, to ridicule, to mock others, no matter who the others are. That members do those things is a result of Mormons not living their religion, not a result of them actually doing what they're told.

I'm not sure a direct connection can be made between the LDS church teachings and the high rates of prescription drug abuse, suicide, etc. in Utah. I think there might be a connection between Mormon culture and those behaviors, but I don't see Mormon culture as being a direct result of living the teachings of the LDS church. And the reason I say that is because in other places where there is a fairly high concentration of Mormons, neither the Mormon culture nor the behaviors currently under discussion occur to the rate which happens in Utah. Perhaps the behaviors are a result of other factors that combine with Mormon culture and/or LDS church teachings, factors like the isolation, the extremes in weather, the economy, the lack of socially acceptable outlets for the daily frustrations of living (like bars and taverns). In any case, not having seen the movie, it doesn't look like they took into account other factors, and simply went with the easiest, which may not be the most accurate.

harmony wrote:

BishopRic wrote: From the pulpits, it is taught and encouraged. In the trenches of the community, it is not lived.

And this is the leaders' fault why?

Never said it was. BUT, I think an argument can be made that there could be vast improvements in the emphasis of true unconditional love. It has to be taught because the scriptures demand it. But the practice of it is the true barometer of how well it is taught.

There is the statement "love the sinner, hate the sin." I think this works about as well as us critics attacking the church, but not its members. Of course the members feel attacked when we challenge the church. Spirituality becomes us, so we personalize the attack.

Similarly, when one who lives a different lifestyle than the prescribed one is told "I love you, but I hate what you are doing," the true message is that they are NOT really accepted or loved unconditionally. This feeling of rejection leads to the many problems discussed in the movie -- drug abuse, suicide, depression...all very high statistics from "Happy Valley."

And to change the trend, I think it takes getting past the denial of the problem, and then a greater emphasis on living true unconditional love. And this starts with...the leaders!

harmony wrote:
I'm not sure a direct connection can be made between the LDS church teachings and the high rates of prescription drug abuse, suicide, etc. in Utah. I think there might be a connection between Mormon culture and those behaviors, but I don't see Mormon culture as being a direct result of living the teachings of the LDS church. And the reason I say that is because in other places where there is a fairly high concentration of Mormons, neither the Mormon culture nor the behaviors currently under discussion occur to the rate which happens in Utah. Perhaps the behaviors are a result of other factors that combine with Mormon culture and/or LDS church teachings, factors like the isolation, the extremes in weather, the economy, the lack of socially acceptable outlets for the daily frustrations of living (like bars and taverns). In any case, not having seen the movie, it doesn't look like they took into account other factors, and simply went with the easiest, which may not be the most accurate.

There is truth to this. When I lived in the SF bay area of California, Mormons were quite accepting of others. They had to be! Otherwise they would have no friends. When you are surrounded by diversity, you are forced to accept them. Thus the ease of shunning the few non-normals in Utah County...those few are not necessary to have a circle of like-minded friends and work associates; and it is "those" that end up with the problems.

Please see the movie. It really is not critical of the church, but instead highlights that the culture is a contributing factor in the serious problem here, but really not the church teachings. It has been endorsed by many state leaders and has been given rave reviews in the last few days. I was disappointed in the weak attendance at Thanksgiving Point last night, and I hope that is not a sign of locals avoiding a very serious and helpful movie because they want to think the problem doesn't exist....

It's huge!

harmony wrote:

Moniker wrote:I see nothing wrong with shunning. I don't know why everyone is acting like that's a bad word. To shun means to deliberately avoid. I deliberately avoid all sorts of people. It's doing it publically to embarrass them is where the problem lies. This is taught in the Church community and it carries over (I have no doubt) for some of those that leave.

A couple of things: there are several reasons why a person may not take the sacrament on any given Sunday. Church discipline is only one. To assume that the reason why Bro A didn't take the sacrament is because he's under church sanction is not something that is taught from the pulpit. If we're going to hold the leaders responsible for Mormon culture (which I agree can be wickedly judgmental), then we're going to have to see exactly what the leaders say, and I can honestly say I've never seen them instruct the members to shun, the judge, to ridicule, to mock others, no matter who the others are. That members do those things is a result of Mormons not living their religion, not a result of them actually doing what they're told.

Sorry, I should walk away from the computer when I get uppity about some of the posters I see on these boards. The few bad apples sort of stand out to me, and I forget, at times, the ones that are living their faith. I suppose I see a correlation with some of the teachings of the Church and the behavior of certain people 'cause they use their religion as a justification of their behavior. Also, just some of the pressure to conform seems incredibly strong... yet, that would be the culture and not so much the Church itself, I suppose? Not certain. Yet, the members and the culture is the Church, is it not? It's difficult, for me, to separate the culture from the religion.

I don't know the answers for why there is such a high rate of depression, suicide, and drug abuse. I just am becoming increasingly more intolerant of intolerance the more I stay on these boards! Ack! :)