DiscussMormonism.com

For those of you who haven't followed the Cinepro saga, here's the short version:

Married 12 years, 3 kids (Son:10, Daughter:8, Daughter:3) Wife knows of my doubts, and is fine, but we don't talk about it. I attend church every week and enjoy it. I've run the Cub Scouts for the last 3 years, and put a lot of energy into it. Bishop of our last ward knew about my doubts, but I haven't really met our new bishop yet in our new ward. I have born my testimony in our new ward 2x (never said anything that wasn't true, just had some really good things to share), and pay my tithing and show up at all the EQ service assignments, so he probably assumes I'm TBM. We have family prayer and read scriptures together a couple times a week. FHE every week.

So here's the problem. My son doesn't want to go to Church. He hates it. He doesn't believe anything (haven't asked talked too much about it, but he may be an atheist). He thinks the Bible stories are stupid. He hates to pray. He is an excellent student at school and his school teacher loves him, but he won't behave in his Primary class. Last week, he asked to go to the bathroom and just wandered the hall for the rest of the time (in what he called his "act of courage"). I considered that he may just be acting out and trying to be a little rebellious, but my wife and I make a much bigger deal about school and Cub Scouts, so I would think he'd pick one of those if that was it.

So my wife an I are at wits end. And I'm drowning in irony, as you all are thinking that Cinepro's chickens have come home to roost. But I sincerely don't think I've treated my son too differently than my dad treated me, and I was a rabid TBM at the age of 10 (had already read the Book of Mormon!) I believed everything, hook-line-and-sinker. I even bought the hemispherical geography for the BoM- that's how far I was out there! For some reason, my son has just failed to connect to the Church at any level other than Cub Scouts.

And he's already decided he is not going on a mission.

So I'm in the odd spot of forcing my son to go to Church and pretend to like it, but I can't tell him I know how he feels since I feel the same way about a lot of the stuff! I've already told my wife I will not force him to go to early morning seminary (I'm not a morning person anyway), or put any pressure to go on a mission. But we've got to figure out what to do about Church, since I'm still going, and he can't stay home alone. We'll be doing carrot/stick in the meantime, but I need to find a longer-term solution if this isn't just a phase.

Is it possible to turn him into a NOM? Have him attend church and participate for the family aspects, without requiring him to develop a full belief in it? If your 10 year old dude has already determined that there's no God, maybe he can also intellectually understand that church is a family and social function that he'll participate in with the rest of you. Maybe you can also have him focus on some of the "chicken soup for the soul" aspects, rather than whether the Book of Mormon is a historical record.

Just spitballin'. I have the luxury of raising apostate kids who don't even know what a church is.

Oh, man... I don't quite understand the pressure exerted on families to keep attending. I wouldn't make my child go, yet, understand that this is different... Why can't you talk to your son about your beliefs, cinepro? Does your wife not support that? Do you just not discuss it all? Or are you pretending to be a believer at home?

If you do more than just the motions, but actually do things like the fhe (aren't beliefs talked about then?), and actually talk at Church that it would appear to your children that you do hold these beliefs. Do you feel like you are deceiving your children?

Oh, I don't know. Sorry. It's difficult for me to relate to the pressure, I suppose. I'm just sorry this is difficult, for you -- yet, glad you have a bright, rebellious son. ;)

Heh, there is some twisted irony in all of this. I don't have any advice, other than what you probably already know - you're going to have to walk a real tightrope while treating his legitimate opinions and feelings with respect.

My kids were very young when I left the church, not even baptized. My oldest was 7, middle 5, youngest 3. The older two are boys, and they were just like your son. I wasn't talking about my doubts with them, obviously, at that age, but they certainly were not natural believers. They hated, and I mean hated, church. Their primary teachers complained constantly that they never participated. They weren't acting out, just sitting sullenly with their mouths firmly shut. They even refused to sing during primary opening exercise. It's kind of funny in retrospect, but it was frustrating to deal with. Of course, by that point I was really wondering why the heck I was making little children go to church THREE HOURS every Sunday anyway.

I also remember other random things that indicate how little they believed anything they were hearing at church. I would read the children's Bible to them, and one time off-handedly mentioned something about historical evidence for Jesus. I will never forget this - my oldest son was SHOCKED. He said WHAT!?!?!? I thought these were stories like Santa Claus. You mean they're really TRUE???? He just couldn't believe it. tee hee

My middle son and daughter weren't the natural skeptics my oldest son was, but church teachings certainly didn't "set in" with them at all. They both expressed ideas that were similar to reincarnation. In fact, at one point, after leaving the church, I seriously flirted with the idea that reincarnation might be legit due to the "memories" of other lives they had talked about as very young children.

I don't have any decent advice, other than to try to relax and enjoy the fact that you have a bright son who isn't afraid to use his own mind. As frustrating as that may be at times when they're little, it's delightful when they get older. I tremendously enjoy my adult children now, and it's that same brightness and wilingness to think for themselves that makes them such delightful adults.

Not much comfort, I'm sure.

Funny, I always thought you were around my age (50). You must be much younger.

My daughter is eight. She sometimes does not want to go to Church, but I always explain to her that I can't leave her home alone. Probably not a good idea to leave a twelve year old home alone either.

If my daughter were older, I would let her make up her own mind. I quit attending Church at age 16. My parents let me make my own decision at that time (not that they ever went to Church with me, I went with the neighbors).

Ask him to try to formulate clearly what he believes and why. Tell him the answers he gives will not be used against him.
This would be for him to be clear to himself, not for you.

Of course, I don't think the church is true or even especially useful--but that's just me. I wish my parents had been rationalists.

Dang it Cinepro, how do you live this way?

As long as you are going through the motions, why not go all the way? Tell your son God is unhappy with him for not having a good attitude. Pull out some pictures of Jesus and talk about Him dying on the cross for our sins. Tell him about the plan of salvation revealed by Joseph Smith. Bear your testimony. Tell a story about the massacre at Haun's mill. That's how my parents kept me in line when I hated Church between the ages of 10-18. Actually they still do it sometimes....

Or this can be a turning point and you come clean with him. Someday he's going to figure you out anyhow. Maybe you can explain to him how this is a good tradeoff for you right now, and he'll have to make the same tradeoff until he's old enough to stay home alone. To use the stick/carrot effectively, you ought to have both feet planted firmly on the ground.

If he hates primary so much then maybe he can sit in grown-up meetings with you. My 10 year old responds better when he's given some choices.

Hey Cinepro...

Tell me what advice you would give to this woman....

Dear Ann Landers,

I am a doubting Scientologist, active in my church but no longer believing. I'm Married 15 years, 3 kids (Daughter: 13, Son: 9, Daughter: 5) DH knows of my doubts, and is fine, but we don't talk about it. I attend church every week and enjoy it. I've run the nursery for the last 5 years, and put a lot of energy into it. My former leader knows of my doubts, but I have not met our new leader. I have born my testimony in our meetings and pay significant money to the church. We have family prayer, are devoted and read our required texts each night. My children think I believe.

So here's the problem. Our thirteen year old daughter doesn't want to go to Church. She hates it. She doesn't believe any of its teachings and thinks the doctrine is ridiculous. She is an excellent student at school and her school teacher loves her, but she won't behave at church and openly rebels. Last week she refused to go to her Sunday class and went outside for a walk until it was over. She really thinks church is stupid.

So my husband and I are at wits end. I don't know what to do. I do not think Scientology is true but don't know how to tell my daughter. Until about five years ago I believed everything, hook-line-and-sinker, (I spent most of my life as a believer). For some unknown reason, my daughter just truly does not believe in Scientology.

She has told us that she doesn't believe and will quit as soon as she is able. She is angry that she is forced to go to a church that she believes is false.

So I'm in the odd spot of forcing my daughter to go to Church and pretend to like it, but I just can't tell her I know how she feels since I feel the same way about a lot of the stuff!

At times I feel like I, as a parent should help her and support her, and I don't want her brainwashed into believing something that is not true, but I don't know how to tell her that I too do not believe the teachings of Scientology.

I like the community and friends I've found in Scientology but my daughter does not find the community enjoyable at all.

Should I keep pretending to believe and not tell her of my true feelings and doubts? Should I allow her to think that the teachings are true and that I believe they are true? Am I deceiving her by pretending to believe and not telling her my honest feelings? I don't want to disappoint my friends and believing family, but I want to be a good parent.

What should I do?

Sincerely,

In a quandary.

:-(

We make kids attend all sorts of things they don't really like: family reunions, weddings, graduations, various ceremonies, shopping trips (I hated it when Mom made me go with her on errands), etc.

My own parents didn't bother with guilt-trips to make me go when I didn't want to. They said that I could choose not to go, but then I would be prohibited from TV, computers, Nintendo, and other entertainment--basically I'd be grounded although they didn't use that term. For me the choice was a no-brainer. I quickly learned to attend church and either draw flip-chart movies on scriptures from the library, or daydream. Then at about 15 I was in hook, line and sinker.

There is a bit of a logistics problem...say you let your child stay home. I mean you are leaving a 10 year old home alone (assuming you continue to go with the rest of the family) but then again sounds like the kid has his mind made up for the moment. How far away is your ward building from the house? Maybe you could get him to go for a bit and then drop him off sometime in between.

(Keep in mind I have no kids so I don't know jack about parenting. Any kids I have will probably be eating out of the dog's food tray and drinking from the garden hose when they're not running around naked semi-feral. So take anything I say with a grain or two.)