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Dale wrote:I have a lot of personal research I feel backs up my position. I have read In Sacred Lonliness by Todd Compton many times. I feel D.&C. 132 and William Claytons Nauvoo Journal are fakes. The copy of the polygamy revelation William Law saw was two or three pages foolscap. The Joseph Kingsbury copy that reputed to be that copy the LDS have is 7-8 pages now. Two other witnesses saw the shorter July 12,1843 revelation. Claytons journal said the original was 10 pages which is untrue if the copy was that short. So its easy for me to side with Richard and Pamela Price on their research on Eliza Snow. http://www.restorationbookstore.org JSFP section. Angus Cannon said she said their was sex, but I doubt her claim did more than complement their hoax.

I am a Reorganized latter day Saint not LDS. I was LDS. I got baptized Community of Christ in 2005. My denominations official stance on Joseph Smith and plural marriage may be found at our church website. http://www.cofchrist.org/ourfaith/faq.asp?pr=yes

Dale, our newest member to the board, posted this as part of Traschcanman's thread in the Telestial Forum. I would love to hear more about Dale's research regarding this.

Dale, when you have a moment, would you be kind enough to indulge us?

;)

I am reading Jerald and Sandra Tanners Mormonism Shadow or Reality?. It has a hefty polygamy section. On page 211 they have a section entitled Lived With His wives. They use three witnesses to back up the idea Joseph Smith had marital relations with his wives.

1.Benjamin Johnson-I stated in a previous post why i doubt his sexuality claim. I know of an alternative proposed August sealing date for Almira. That would allow Hyrum Smith to be a valid part of his and his sisters testimony. He could indeed have approved the polygamy doctrine then and her sealing to Joseph Smith. But i was impressed with how Todd Compton made a case for the April date in In Sacred Lonliness. And the August date looks like its based on un-documented opinion.
2.Lucy Walker-as a personal rule i do not accuse witnesses of lying. Unless i can deliver the goods i do not go that far. In the statement they cite she affirms Emma Smith consented to four plural wives her husband took.
I do know her and Melissa Willis testimony was rejected by the U.S. court before which they appeared as witnesses. With published cards in Nauvoo declaring Joseph Smiths innocence, and no children from Lucy Walker to Joseph Smith Judge Philips was unimpressed. Some of these cards were signed by wives of Joseph Smith which legally invalidated their claims to be wives. At most the judge thought under U.S. law that they were sports in nest hiding.
3.R.C. Evans-He was an ex-member of my church. He wrote a book which i got from Utah Lighthouse Ministry entitled Forty Years in the Mormon Church. Anyway Melissa lott willis told him she once had sexual intercourse with Joseph smith.
I found an interesting contradiction you are not told by scholars, or LDS critics. she claimed in the Temple Lot case by means of an affidavit the room where she claimed to have spent the night with Joseph Smith. But she told Joseph Smith 3rd about the sex, but she told him nothing ever went on at Joseph Smiths residence the Mansion House.

In In Sacred lonliness pages 12-15 Todd Compton has a section entitled Sexuality in Joseph Smith's Plural Marriages. I will just make brief notes on what i think about his documentation. I may have to double post if i run out of room.

pg.12-I feel Apostle George A. Smith made up the story about Emma acting as a midwife for a pregnant plural wife of Joseph smith. They had to discredit her side. Her side she told Lucy (the Apostle's wife) was "They were only sealed for eternity they were not to live with him and have children." He uses the story to make us Community of Christ (Reorganized LDS) look like we have a stupid position. Mary Lightner i feel was told falsely Joseph Smith had three children. pg.13-Emily Partridge did claim intercourse with Joseph Smith. That claim may, or may not be true. I don't absolutely trust her myself. Benjamin Johnson if Almira was sealed to Joseph Smith in April their story Hyrum Smith approved of her sealing to Joseph Smith is just untrue. Angus Cannon did claim Eliza Snow claimed she had relations with Joseph Smith. I feel Sylvia felt her daughter Josephine was Joseph Smiths daughter in a spiritualy adopted sense. Lucy walker claimed her and Hebers nine kids would be Joseph smiths in the resurrection. So i am thinking Sylvia confused her daughter with overliterally sounding language that sounded biological. We may never know as DNA testing failed to prove or disprove her claim. If Joseph smith had favorite wives why did he not have children by them? him and Emma Smith had eight kids together.

D.&C. 132 absolutely forbid polyandrous relationships. D.&C. 132:41-44 requires a woman be divorced before she could be appointed to be with Joseph Smith for time. And they could not live with the existing husband again without being divorced from Joseph Smith. (Matthew 19)I understand Joseph Smiths polyandry as time and for eternity as being understood by Joseph Smith and the women as meant for the eternity. Any sharing of wives in mortality in the document would be clearly adultury. So i think Joseph Smith planned to get them in the afterlife. He feels the fact the women had children by the 11 husbands would "limit the number of his children. If these were platonic arrangements like i feel that would prevent children entirely. But since sex and child bearing did not end with death in eternal marriage he planned on an eternally growing family in the resurrection. I did not find his case for sexuality persuasive enough to agree i need to abandon my position. pg.14 With mary Lightner, and Zina Huntington i myself do pay attention to the "time and for eternity" words they used as desriptions of their marriages to Joseph Smith. But Todd Compton hurts the phrases use as proof of sexuality by declaring no sex in the Helen Mar Kimball, and Patty Sessions sealings. Those ceremonies used the phrase also. "In conclusion though it is possible that Joseph had some marriages in which there was no sexual relations, there is no explicit or convincing evidence for this (except, perhaps, in the cases of the older wives, judging from later Mormon polygamy). And in a significant number of marriages, there is evidence for sexual relations." (ISL, pg. 15)

I do not see Todd Compton as presenting unquestionable proof of sexuality. He presents some old claims which may, or may not be true. And i see some reasons to interpret things differently than he does. So i favor Emma Smiths side.

Dale wrote: And I see some reasons to interpret things differently than he does. So I favor Emma Smiths side.

Of course you would, because you belong to the CoC (Community of Christ), who follow Emma's line. What you are spouting here, Dale, is categorical nonsense! Something akin to Holocaust denial, and "fake moon landings". Even FARMS won't reply to this utter trash, which has been demolished by years of reliable scholarship, particularly from Richard van Wagoner.

I had to have a say in this, and now I will depart. Goodbye.

Welcome Dale.

Dale,

I read several books produced by the RLDS when I first began to dig a few years ago. The evidence was very compelling. However, after reading "Mormon enigma" and others, I concluded that the Smiths (and his friends) were all liars - Emma and children included.

Joseph Smith had sex outside the sacred bonds of marriage at least once. It doesn't matter how many times thereafter. The fact of the matter is that the LDS church covered this up for several years and the RLDS perpetuated the coverup. Joseph Smith was an impenetant adulterer.

I was taught in the LDS church that I was not entitled to inspiration if my vessel was impure. Naturally, leaders (and founders) or no less immune to this same standard.

I was also taught that God does not counsel in darkness. I began to see very little light as I studied the manner so many doctrines came about.

I am not clear if Dale is proposing the Joseph Smith had nothing to do with Polygamy or if he did but would have repudiatied it. I think based on the evidence it is pretty hard to deny Joseph was smack in the middle of the polygamy issue.

Ray A wrote:

Dale wrote: And I see some reasons to interpret things differently than he does. So I favor Emma Smiths side.

Of course you would, because you belong to the CoC (Community of Christ), who follow Emma's line. What you are spouting here, Dale, is categorical nonsense! Something akin to Holocaust denial, and "fake moon landings". Even FARMS won't reply to this utter trash, which has been demolished by years of reliable scholarship, particularly from Richard van Wagoner.

I had to have a say in this, and now I will depart. Goodbye.

Well, well! Look who's back! Come now, Ray, don't think that we haven't forgotten your "parting shots" on this board. Tell me: Don't you have something you'd like to say to Dr. Shades? E.g., "I'm sorry for what I did"?

The allegation the revelation was changed i mainly used was from William Law. In an interview online at Mormonism Researched Ministry he expressed surprise the LDS version was so long. The authors of Mormon Enigma cite James Whiteheads description of a 1 page foolscap revelation. And they cite William Laws two to three page foolscap description. If the copy was that short the Joseph Kingsbury revelation has to be a forgery. The ten page revelation William Clayton said he wrote has to indicate his journal is spurious.

William Clayton maintained the revelation they published in 1852 was the same as the one made in Nauvoo. But that can't be a true claim as its not the one William Law saw. It was that smaller copy that read to the High Council by Hyrum Smith.

I only commented on the material in In Sacred Lonliness. To clarify Emma Smiths private position was that her husband was married to or sealed to other women for the eternity. Joseph Smith 3rd held this position also. What was under dispute by them is whether the earthly part of the allegations were true.