DiscussMormonism.com

Several National news stories regarding men having sex with young girls and teenagers are being reported in the news today.

In Florida a video tape is found of a man sexually abusing two girls. Eleven men were arrested in a sting operation for trying to have sex with a fourteen year old girl. And, of course the FLDS compound is being exposed in all its horror.

I am very happy to hear the disgust and horror and outrage most people in our society feels about this sort of thing.

It makes me wonder about the many apologists who are so supportive of the early church practice of polygamy. We hear about presentism, we hear all sorts of excuses and justifications, and somehow apologists dismiss it all and don't seem to care about the girls who were used and abused by early church leaders and members.

I find it interesting how the mind works, enabling people to believe fifty or sixty year old men having sex with girls was all fine and dandy (and actually God's will), for Joseph Smith, BY, & Co., yet they (at least some) are less open to supporting others who engage in the very same behavior.

I hope the news broadcasts have shined a light on how horrible polygamy truly is and how cruelly the early church treated women and children.

I hope all those folks who claim polygamy is a wonderful thing, that it is God's will, that there was nothing wrong with it watch the news and come to understand the reality of the practice.

In civilized society is NOT OK for men to rape girls, "marry" girls, or abuse girls.... regardless of how many men claim God is telling them otherwise!


~dancer~

Remember Isaiah 55:8. If D.&C. 132 was a true revelation from God he has no objection. If not was not there is no need to defend Joseph Smith or BY. Where do you disagree with the Joseph Smiths marriages to Young women article? http://www.en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smi ... oung_women

With Helen Mar Kimball Todd Compton hold Joseph smith never had sexual relations with Helen Kimball. He feels following a later practice in Utah he would have waited for her to get older. The FAIR article documents his view.

Mary the mother of Jesus was a teenager when she got married. She may have been as young as 14. In a modern culture we object to marrying you, but i doubt God who is archaic would care? Do you have a Bible verse that says God objects to marrying young? Prove from your Bible polygamists who took wives only married adult women. Deut. 17 allows a king to have some wives, some gold, and some horses. Deut. 21 has rules governing plural marriage.
The law says nothing about not marrying a plural wife in her teens. Prove to me no respected Old Testament polygamist ever took a teen bride. You are saying its not Gods will to marry teens, but i would like you to show me where you found Gods will on the matter in your Bible.

Dale wrote:Remember Isaiah 55:8. If D.&C. 132 was a true revelation from God he has no objection. If not was not there is no need to defend Joseph Smith or BY. Where do you disagree with the Joseph Smiths marriages to Young women article? http://www.en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smi ... oung_women

With Helen Mar Kimball Todd Compton hold Joseph smith never had sexual relations with Helen Kimball. He feels following a later practice in Utah he would have waited for her to get older. The FAIR article documents his view.

Mary the mother of Jesus was a teenager when she got married. She may have been as young as 14. In a modern culture we object to marrying you, but I doubt God who is archaic would care? Do you have a Bible verse that says God objects to marrying young? Prove from your Bible polygamists who took wives only married adult women. Deut. 17 allows a king to have some wives, some gold, and some horses. Deut. 21 has rules governing plural marriage.
The law says nothing about not marrying a plural wife in her teens. Prove to me no respected Old Testament polygamist ever took a teen bride. You are saying its not Gods will to marry teens, but I would like you to show me where you found Gods will on the matter in your Bible.

Bad Bible practices are poor justification for continuing bad practices today.

Dale wrote:. . . respected Old Testament polygamist . . .

And this is our gold standard for comparison of whether grown men should engage in sexual relations with young teen girls?

I really don't know what to say.

Dale wrote:Remember Isaiah 55:8. If D.&C. 132 was a true revelation from God he has no objection. If not was not there is no need to defend Joseph Smith or BY. Where do you disagree with the Joseph Smiths marriages to Young women article? http://www.en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smi ... oung_women

With Helen Mar Kimball Todd Compton hold Joseph smith never had sexual relations with Helen Kimball. He feels following a later practice in Utah he would have waited for her to get older. The FAIR article documents his view.

Mary the mother of Jesus was a teenager when she got married. She may have been as young as 14. In a modern culture we object to marrying you, but I doubt God who is archaic would care? Do you have a Bible verse that says God objects to marrying young? Prove from your Bible polygamists who took wives only married adult women. Deut. 17 allows a king to have some wives, some gold, and some horses. Deut. 21 has rules governing plural marriage.
The law says nothing about not marrying a plural wife in her teens. Prove to me no respected Old Testament polygamist ever took a teen bride. You are saying its not Gods will to marry teens, but I would like you to show me where you found Gods will on the matter in your Bible.

I am sorry but both the grammar of the sentences and logic behind this defense of child rape is a defense of abnormal behavior that has no place in civilized society.

I feel that over the course of your participation here you will feel that I am your enemy. Given your opinion expressed here I would agree with this.

Get help and if you participate in what you are advocating here please turn yourself into the proper authorities.

Dale, thank you for your post. It is most revealing of your misconstruance of morality as you attempt justification of unacceptable present behaviors by relating them to past-practices that have been eschewed as humankind evolved over the centuries. Simple example, child labour was a norm until the late 1800s. Work-place safety is of the 1900s. I'm sure you can add to the list...

You further state:

Mary the mother of Jesus was a teenager when she got married. She may have been as young as 14. In a modern culture we object to marrying you, but I doubt God who is archaic would care? Do you have a Bible verse that says God objects to marrying young? Prove from your Bible polygamists who took wives only married adult women. Deut. 17 allows a king to have some wives, some gold, and some horses. Deut. 21 has rules governing plural marriage.
The law says nothing about not marrying a plural wife in her teens. Prove to me no respected Old Testament polygamist ever took a teen bride. You are saying its not Gods will to marry teens, but I would like you to show me where you found Gods will on the matter in your Bible.

So much of the above is totally irrelevant to today. Are you suggesting 'kings should have "some wives" today? And that wives be categorized with material goods and live-stock?

It appears that you might be a Bible literalist. Is that the case? If so, and as a new poster, best that you be aware that very few here believe literally that the Bible is jot-and-tittle the word of "God". (Many also do not believe all of Joseph Smith's teachings, and practices were/are directed by "God")

What TD describes as abhorent IS abhorent, regardless of the beliefs of the ignorant unleared exploitors of past generations. Sorry Dale, bringing "Mary the mother of Jesus" into the discussion does nothing to address the evils of abuse TD brings to our attention. Warm regards, Roger

Dale wrote:Remember Isaiah 55:8. If D.&C. 132 was a true revelation from God he has no objection. If not was not there is no need to defend Joseph Smith or BY. Where do you disagree with the Joseph Smiths marriages to Young women article? http://www.en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smi ... oung_women

With Helen Mar Kimball Todd Compton hold Joseph smith never had sexual relations with Helen Kimball. He feels following a later practice in Utah he would have waited for her to get older. The FAIR article documents his view.

Mary the mother of Jesus was a teenager when she got married. She may have been as young as 14. In a modern culture we object to marrying you, but I doubt God who is archaic would care? Do you have a Bible verse that says God objects to marrying young? Prove from your Bible polygamists who took wives only married adult women. Deut. 17 allows a king to have some wives, some gold, and some horses. Deut. 21 has rules governing plural marriage.
The law says nothing about not marrying a plural wife in her teens. Prove to me no respected Old Testament polygamist ever took a teen bride. You are saying its not Gods will to marry teens, but I would like you to show me where you found Gods will on the matter in your Bible.

Dale,

There is no honest defense for what Joseph Smith did. To sit there and claim he took young girls as wives and never had sex with them is ridiculous. Why else would he do it? What screwed up law was he living that would require this? BY followed his lead, and he sure had sex with them. Joseph Smith word carries no weight. It is documented that Joseph Smith lied on more than on occasion.

I usually have pretty thick skin, but I find this post of yours offensive.

I posted this question on an earlier thread TD with no response but it's been on my mind lately and I can't help but restate it.

Does free will exist? Can these "rapist" really help being who they are? Why are they not simply victims of their own genetics and conditioning?

People who lived 1000 years ago were clearly "conditioned," to a different morality than we are conditioned to today? Who decides what morality human beings should be programmed to folllow? Who does this ultimately serve? Is it all just a question of power and who gets to manipulate the puppet? Power obtained through masculine violence and agression, or power obtained through feminine passive agression. They both are ultimately self serving and people using mechanisms.

sunstoned wrote:Dale,

There is no honest defense for what Joseph Smith did. To sit there and claim he took young girls as wives and never had sex with them is ridiculous. Why else would he do it? What screwed up law was he living that would require this? BY followed his lead, and he sure had sex with them. Joseph Smith word carries no weight. It is documented that Joseph Smith lied on more than on occasion.

I usually have pretty thick skin, but I find this post of yours offensive.

If the women were only for SEX after this life, why were all of them so damned young?

It begs the question, "why didn't he seal himself to a bevy of nearlydeads so he'd have his celestial bed ready for him?"

Why was young age an obvious requirement?

Was it that he was entitled to VIRGINS? Well, if he wasn't having sex with them (and the plan was that they would give their virtue to another man for time), then the VIRGIN argument bears no value. Besides, many of the women were married (some having children) and were certainly not virgins.

If you ask me, 19 is too young for marriage, but the government didn't ask me. I think in a more simple agrarian or hunter-gatherer society that a younger marriage age would be acceptable provided that there was no coercion involved.