DiscussMormonism.com

Many intelligent people continue to believe that Joseph Smith translated something called "reformed Egyptian" using decoding spectacles, only had sex with his teenaged foster daughters because an angel would have killed him if he hadn't, and that there are three, two-thousand-year-old "American Israelites" wandering around performing anonymous good deeds, like plowing fields while farmers are asleep.

How can this be?

I think the answer is that posessing intelligence is not equivalent to critical thinking, any more than posessing a vast amount of wealth is equivalent to being an astute investor.

No matter what we tell ourselves as Mormons, belief in Mormonism ultimately requires the same sort of uncritical thinking that facilitates belief in Scientology, astrology, or iridiology. It is a kind of thinking that denies that empirically-discovered facts and the rules of logic impose constraints on what we may justifiably believe. It is one which claims that the content of things like "private intuitions", "privately heard voices" (see Son of Sam, Nephi, etc.), or "metaphysical inspiration", should be granted just as much credibility as a replicable test under controlled conditions, or one corroborated by facts discovered by a multitude of disciplines.

To put it baldly: the psychological state in which it makes sense to us to credit to a voice telling us that the sun is drawing its light from a star called Kolob, rather than creating it by internal nuclear processes, is the same one in which, potentially, it makes sense to credit a voice telling us to kill. Where we deny the validity of empirical or logical checks upon our privately heard voice, or privately felt intuitions, any belief or action becomes potentially possible.

Mormons like my former self might object that "the spirit" is the check; but that is a tautology. It is "the spirit" - however we choose to define it - itself which represents a rejection of the constraints on belief. It itself is no "check"; it is itself the symptom that we have given ourselves over to magical thinking (where 2+2 can equal whatever we wish it to equal).

Just my two cents,

T.

Tal Bachman wrote:I think the answer is that posessing intelligence is not equivalent to critical thinking, any more than posessing a vast amount of wealth is equivalent to being an astute investor.

Ah, man. Bad analogy. :(

You should have said that posessing intelligence is not equivalent to critical thinking, any more than posessing a vast sexual stamina is equivalent to being a good lover.

Perfect.

Tal Bachman wrote:Many intelligent people continue to believe that Joseph Smith translated something called "reformed Egyptian" using decoding spectacles, only had sex with his teenaged foster daughters because an angel would have killed him if he hadn't, and that there are three, two-thousand-year-old "American Israelites" wandering around performing anonymous good deeds, like plowing fields while farmers are asleep.

How can this be?

I think the answer is that posessing intelligence is not equivalent to critical thinking, any more than posessing a vast amount of wealth is equivalent to being an astute investor.

No matter what we tell ourselves as Mormons, belief in Mormonism ultimately requires the same sort of uncritical thinking that facilitates belief in Scientology, astrology, or iridiology. It is a kind of thinking that denies that empirically-discovered facts and the rules of logic impose constraints on what we may justifiably believe. It is one which claims that the content of things like "private intuitions", "privately heard voices" (see Son of Sam, Nephi, etc.), or "metaphysical inspiration", should be granted just as much credibility as a replicable test under controlled conditions, or one corroborated by facts discovered by a multitude of disciplines.

To put it baldly: the psychological state in which it makes sense to us to credit to a voice telling us that the sun is drawing its light from a star called Kolob, rather than creating it by internal nuclear processes, is the same one in which, potentially, it makes sense to credit a voice telling us to kill. Where we deny the validity of empirical or logical checks upon our privately heard voice, or privately felt intuitions, any belief or action becomes potentially possible.

Mormons like my former self might object that "the spirit" is the check; but that is a tautology. It is "the spirit" - however we choose to define it - itself which represents a rejection of the constraints on belief. It itself is no "check"; it is itself the symptom that we have given ourselves over to magical thinking (where 2+2 can equal whatever we wish it to equal).

Just my two cents,

T.

I'm sort of flustered with some of the beliefs people hold, people that I KNOW are much, much, much brighter than I. Perhaps, it's just that if someone grows up indoctrinated with these beliefs that they will resist all attempts to lose them. I feel uncomfortable, at times, discussing things with people I recognize are more intelligent than I, better educated, quite knowledgeable about all matters and yet, they believe in things that seem fantastical. I actually sort of go into shut down 'cause it's difficult to communicate, for me, at that point. I chalk it up to them being invested in their beliefs.

I think to believe in something supernatural it does not necessarily indicate poor critical thinking skills. On the flip side I'm a terrible critical thinker and I can't latch onto the supernatural for the life of me. I'm probably not imaginative enough for it to work. :)

Tal Bachman wrote:Many intelligent people continue to believe that Joseph Smith translated something called "reformed Egyptian" using decoding spectacles, only had sex with his teenaged foster daughters because an angel would have killed him if he hadn't, and that there are three, two-thousand-year-old "American Israelites" wandering around performing anonymous good deeds, like plowing fields while farmers are asleep.

How can this be?

I think the answer is that posessing intelligence is not equivalent to critical thinking, any more than posessing a vast amount of wealth is equivalent to being an astute investor.

No matter what we tell ourselves as Mormons, belief in Mormonism ultimately requires the same sort of uncritical thinking that facilitates belief in Scientology, astrology, or iridiology. It is a kind of thinking that denies that empirically-discovered facts and the rules of logic impose constraints on what we may justifiably believe. It is one which claims that the content of things like "private intuitions", "privately heard voices" (see Son of Sam, Nephi, etc.), or "metaphysical inspiration", should be granted just as much credibility as a replicable test under controlled conditions, or one corroborated by facts discovered by a multitude of disciplines.

To put it baldly: the psychological state in which it makes sense to us to credit to a voice telling us that the sun is drawing its light from a star called Kolob, rather than creating it by internal nuclear processes, is the same one in which, potentially, it makes sense to credit a voice telling us to kill. Where we deny the validity of empirical or logical checks upon our privately heard voice, or privately felt intuitions, any belief or action becomes potentially possible.

Mormons like my former self might object that "the spirit" is the check; but that is a tautology. It is "the spirit" - however we choose to define it - itself which represents a rejection of the constraints on belief. It itself is no "check"; it is itself the symptom that we have given ourselves over to magical thinking (where 2+2 can equal whatever we wish it to equal).

Just my two cents,

T.

I don't have an answer to why seeming intelligent, well read folks give themselves over to belief system that flies in the face of facts and logic. I tend to think that intelligence and critical thinking have little to do with it.

I work in a technical field and know many deeply Mormon, intelligent engineers who live and die by their critical thinking skills. These skills somehow get turned off when it come to their religion. How does my co-worker, a software architect with an advanced degree, somehow rationalize a belief that 10 of the tribes of Israel are living under the northern ice pack? At the same time, this person cannot understand how Tom Cruise could believe all the wackiness he does.

Tal,

Put down the mouse and pick up the guitar.

You are a great musician but SUCK at this exmo thing.

Your 15 minutes of exmo fame were like three years ago.

Go make a legacy of great music instead of turning into another Steve Benson.

I think the answer is that posessing intelligence is not equivalent to critical thinking,

Tal is exhibiting all the symptoms of 2 Timothy 3:7 and 2 Nephi 9:28.

Tal, why are you still so obssessed with Mormonism. Don't you have a life? Get a move on, buddy! Go work on your second hit.

Tal Bachman wrote:Just my two cents,

Don't rate yourself so highly.

Tal, why are you still so obssessed with Mormonism. Don't you have a life?

---It's not so much the Mormonism, as the psychology. That's what I'm interested in.

And about the life part - trying to figure things out pretty much IS my life. But thanks for asking.

Tal Bachman wrote:

Tal, why are you still so obssessed with Mormonism. Don't you have a life?

---It's not so much the Mormonism, as the psychology. That's what I'm interested in.

And about the life part - trying to figure things out pretty much IS my life. But thanks for asking.

Mate, give it a break. Okay, you no longer believe, but can you respect the fact that your family might still believe for reasons beyond you? Do you think they may have spiritual and personal reasons for believing that escape your "rational scrutiny"? Is life all material and reduced to "material phenomena"? Come on Tal, don't assume you've found all the answers. The least you can do is allow some latitude here. When you are on your deathbed, will you call upon Hume?