DiscussMormonism.com

*Cross Post*

Here is a paradox that I stumbled on and never solved. I would like to hear some of your opinions on it. This was very real for me and gave me a lot of anxiety when I was a child and a teenager. Later in life I didn’t solve it, I just quit worrying about it.

It begins with the concept of repentance I was taught as a Mormon. The idea is that if you repeat a sin which you previous repented of, the original sin returns to you. The net effect is that your previous act of repentance is made null and void. Since part of the previous repentance process was a promise to God that you would not repeat the sin, you now have added a new sin, a violation of a promise to God.

To repent of this new sin, you must repent of the whole lot. This includes the first sin, the second repeat instance of the sin and the promise breaking. But in order to repent of this second set, you must sincerely promise to God that you will not do it again and have real intent to not do it again.

To see how this works take a relatively small sin like cursing. Suppose, as a youth you drop your first swear word. You repent. You swear again. You repent again on and on until the nth occurrence. With each successive act, repentance becomes presumably more difficult because you must sincerely repent of all previous acts including breaking a covenant to God n times as well as having a honest and sincere intent to not do it again. Knowing your own personal propensity to repeat this act, this sincere intent becomes hard and harder to achieve. But it remains that if you do not intend to not do it in the future, you haven’t repented.

It would seem to me that it does not take long given human nature, until repentance becomes virtually impossible because of the scope of what needs to be repented and changed.

Thoughts?

John Larsen wrote:*Cross Post*

Here is a paradox that I stumbled on and never solved. I would like to hear some of your opinions on it. This was very real for me and gave me a lot of anxiety when I was a child and a teenager. Later in life I didn’t solve it, I just quit worrying about it.

It begins with the concept of repentance I was taught as a Mormon. The idea is that if you repeat a sin which you previous repented of, the original sin returns to you. The net effect is that your previous act of repentance is made null and void. Since part of the previous repentance process was a promise to God that you would not repeat the sin, you now have added a new sin, a violation of a promise to God.

To repent of this new sin, you must repent of the whole lot. This includes the first sin, the second repeat instance of the sin and the promise breaking. But in order to repent of this second set, you must sincerely promise to God that you will not do it again and have real intent to not do it again.

To see how this works take a relatively small sin like cursing. Suppose, as a youth you drop your first swear word. You repent. You swear again. You repent again on and on until the nth occurrence. With each successive act, repentance becomes presumably more difficult because you must sincerely repent of all previous acts including breaking a covenant to God n times as well as having a honest and sincere intent to not do it again. Knowing your own personal propensity to repeat this act, this sincere intent becomes hard and harder to achieve. But it remains that if you do not intend to not do it in the future, you haven’t repented.

It would seem to me that it does not take long given human nature, until repentance becomes virtually impossible because of the scope of what needs to be repented and changed.

Thoughts?

Repentance has always been virtually impossible. That's why we have Christ there to walk us through it. I think you're looking at repentance as a mechanical act that you do and it's done. There is another person in the equation and HE decides when repentance is complete.

John Larsen wrote:*Cross Post*

Here is a paradox that I stumbled on and never solved. I would like to hear some of your opinions on it. This was very real for me and gave me a lot of anxiety when I was a child and a teenager. Later in life I didn’t solve it, I just quit worrying about it.

It begins with the concept of repentance I was taught as a Mormon. The idea is that if you repeat a sin which you previous repented of, the original sin returns to you. The net effect is that your previous act of repentance is made null and void. Since part of the previous repentance process was a promise to God that you would not repeat the sin, you now have added a new sin, a violation of a promise to God.

To repent of this new sin, you must repent of the whole lot. This includes the first sin, the second repeat instance of the sin and the promise breaking. But in order to repent of this second set, you must sincerely promise to God that you will not do it again and have real intent to not do it again.

To see how this works take a relatively small sin like cursing. Suppose, as a youth you drop your first swear word. You repent. You swear again. You repent again on and on until the nth occurrence. With each successive act, repentance becomes presumably more difficult because you must sincerely repent of all previous acts including breaking a covenant to God n times as well as having a honest and sincere intent to not do it again. Knowing your own personal propensity to repeat this act, this sincere intent becomes hard and harder to achieve. But it remains that if you do not intend to not do it in the future, you haven’t repented.

It would seem to me that it does not take long given human nature, until repentance becomes virtually impossible because of the scope of what needs to be repented and changed.

Thoughts?

This is based on some obscure SINLGE verse in the D&C that I just think has been over used and abused:

D&C 82:1-7
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, my servants, that inasmuch as you have aforgiven one another your trespasses, even so I, the Lord, forgive you.
2 Nevertheless, there are those among you who have sinned exceedingly; yea, even aall of you have sinned; but verily I say unto you, beware from henceforth, and refrain from sin, lest sore judgments fall upon your heads.
3 For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater elight shall receive the greater condemnation.
4 Ye call upon my name for revelations, and I give them unto you; and inasmuch as ye keep not my sayings, which I give unto you, ye become transgressors; and justice and judgment are the penalty which is affixed unto my law.
5 Therefore, what I say unto one I say unto all: watch, for the adversary spreadeth his dominions, and darkness reigneth;
6 And the anger of God kindleth against the inhabitants of the earth; and none doeth good, for all have gone out of the way.
7 And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.

Given all the other passages on repentance that seem to refute it I frankly ignored this passage and just did not sweat it over it.

The Nehor wrote:

John Larsen wrote:*Cross Post*

Here is a paradox that I stumbled on and never solved. I would like to hear some of your opinions on it. This was very real for me and gave me a lot of anxiety when I was a child and a teenager. Later in life I didn’t solve it, I just quit worrying about it.

It begins with the concept of repentance I was taught as a Mormon. The idea is that if you repeat a sin which you previous repented of, the original sin returns to you. The net effect is that your previous act of repentance is made null and void. Since part of the previous repentance process was a promise to God that you would not repeat the sin, you now have added a new sin, a violation of a promise to God.

To repent of this new sin, you must repent of the whole lot. This includes the first sin, the second repeat instance of the sin and the promise breaking. But in order to repent of this second set, you must sincerely promise to God that you will not do it again and have real intent to not do it again.

To see how this works take a relatively small sin like cursing. Suppose, as a youth you drop your first swear word. You repent. You swear again. You repent again on and on until the nth occurrence. With each successive act, repentance becomes presumably more difficult because you must sincerely repent of all previous acts including breaking a covenant to God n times as well as having a honest and sincere intent to not do it again. Knowing your own personal propensity to repeat this act, this sincere intent becomes hard and harder to achieve. But it remains that if you do not intend to not do it in the future, you haven’t repented.

It would seem to me that it does not take long given human nature, until repentance becomes virtually impossible because of the scope of what needs to be repented and changed.

Thoughts?

Repentance has always been virtually impossible. That's why we have Christ there to walk us through it. I think you're looking at repentance as a mechanical act that you do and it's done. There is another person in the equation and HE decides when repentance is complete.

I think that is the common protestant approach. But I will suspect that the version I have given (minus the paradox stuff) is what is being taught today in YM/YW.

As I've said, I see sin as more of a condition and state of mind than an act. This is one reason, I believe, that Christ talked about hating someone being like murder. It's the attitude and action. Actions lead to attitudes, and vie versa.

With this in mind, the former sins "returning" is not much more than the former sins being manifest yet again, as they apparently were never completely forsaken.

LifeOnaPlate wrote:As I've said, I see sin as more of a condition and state of mind than an act. This is one reason, I believe, that Christ talked about hating someone being like murder. It's the attitude and action. Actions lead to attitudes, and vie versa.

With this in mind, the former sins "returning" is not much more than the former sins being manifest yet again, as they apparently were never completely forsaken.

If that is the case, then you can never repent for something that you will continue to do, right?

How about lust? That's a biological function you cannot turn off willfully. By your standard, you could never repent from that.

Oh! My! Godness!

This is just insane sounding. How much time would one waste on such a thing?

John Larsen wrote:

LifeOnaPlate wrote:As I've said, I see sin as more of a condition and state of mind than an act. This is one reason, I believe, that Christ talked about hating someone being like murder. It's the attitude and action. Actions lead to attitudes, and vie versa.

With this in mind, the former sins "returning" is not much more than the former sins being manifest yet again, as they apparently were never completely forsaken.

If that is the case, then you can never repent for something that you will continue to do, right?

How about lust? That's a biological function you cannot turn off willfully. By your standard, you could never repent from that.

You can become better at handling it. You don't have to believe in Christ particularly in order to do that.

Moniker wrote:Oh! My! Godness!

This is just insane sounding. How much time would one waste on such a thing?

On repentance?

D&C 82:1-7

Given all the other passages on repentance that seem to refute it I frankly ignored this passage and just did not sweat it over it.

What passages do you think refute it? 2 Peter 2:20 seems to support it.