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Beastie's fear

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:15 pm
by _wenglund
Hi Beastie,

I the hopes of salvaging at least something of worth from the Shermer thread train wreck, I would like to discuss one of your expressed fears from that thread. That fear being:

Belief in God results in moral relativism which may cause the kind of thinking where people will fly planes into buildings.

We know that your fear can be realized because it happened on 9-11.

The question, though, is how rational is this fear in terms of your average religionist?

What is the likelyhood of, say, a group of LDS Home Teachers purposely slaughtering thousands of innocent people for God, particularly in light of their bearly being able to complete a portion of their Home Teaching visits by the end of the month?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:31 pm
by _beastie
As long as the LDS church maintains its goal of becoming more and more mainstream, and as long as the significant leadership positions are held by men who are comfortable in that mainstream and feel part of their power comes from being in that mainstream, it is not likely at all.

Of course, my point wasn't that LDS hometeachers would be plowing airplanes into buildings. My point was that your admission that you would re-evaluate and perhaps change your opinion that adult men should not have sex with young male children IF God "told" the prophet that it was A-Ok, and then verified to YOU that it was A-ok - is the same kind of thinking. In other words, it's the same kind of thinking because it demonstrates the willingness to engage in acts that would normally offend one's native moral instincts if GOD commands it.

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:03 pm
by _wenglund
beastie wrote:As long as the LDS church maintains its goal of becoming more and more mainstream, and as long as the significant leadership positions are held by men who are comfortable in that mainstream and feel part of their power comes from being in that mainstream, it is not likely at all.

Of course, my point wasn't that LDS hometeachers would be plowing airplanes into buildings. My point was that your admission that you would re-evaluate and perhaps change your opinion that adult men should not have sex with young male children IF God "told" the prophet that it was A-Ok, and then verified to YOU that it was A-ok - is the same kind of thinking. In other words, it's the same kind of thinking because it demonstrates the willingness to engage in acts that would normally offend one's native moral instincts if GOD commands it.


I am fine with the way you restated your fear. So, let's restate the question: "How rational is this fear in terms of your average religionist?"

In other words, what is the likelyhood of, say: 1) God telling the prophet of the LDS Church that it was benefitial for adult men to have sex with young males; 2) The prophet disclosing this to the Church; 3) God verifying to me and other LDS that what the prophet disclosed is A-Ok; 4) Me and other LDS agreeing that it is A-OK; and 5) Me and other LDS adult males having sex with young male children?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:09 pm
by _Dr. Shades
wenglund wrote:In other words, what is the likelyhood of, say: 1) God telling the prophet of the LDS Church that it was benefitial for adult men to have sex with young males; 2) The prophet disclosing this to the Church; 3) God verifying to me and other LDS that what the prophet disclosed is A-Ok; 4) Me and other LDS agreeing that it is A-OK; and 5) Me and other LDS adult males having sex with young male children?


Well, it already happened with polygamy.

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:46 pm
by _beastie
Of course this specific example isn't likely to happen. But you predictably miss my point. My point isn't that one particular thing will happen at all. Here's the real question, IN FACT:

How likely is it that True Believers in the LDS church would be willing to abandon their own native sense of morality to accommodate what "God" tells their leaders and affirms to them via "revelation"?

For True Believers, I would say the likelihood approaches 100%.

Of course True Believers only represent a portion of active LDS. There are many LDS who would be quite willing and able to draw a line.

You have already told us that you would be willing to reconsider your moral aversion to sex between adult men and male children if GOD told the prophet it was ok, and then verified that to you. So you are, IN FACT, a True Believer who has already answered this question for your particular case. The only question is what percentage of LDS would agree with you?

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:23 pm
by _Coggins7
The question, though, is how rational is this fear in terms of your average religionist?



Of course, it is approximately zero. Belief in God tends to create, again of course, a sense of moral absolutism, not moral relativism. Secular moral relativism exterminated well over one hundred million people during the 20th century, while those who believed in moral absolutes, Jews, died by the millions in the camps and languished in brutal police states run by the relativists who had planted its own agents within the ranks of the clergy within the religious system to which many belonged (in one of the relativists most imposing and long lasting creations).

It was the moral relativists, not the absolutists, who have killed on the alter of the golden calf, tens of millions of the unborn since 1973, not the absolutists. I have yet to see--anywhere in the world, Jews, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Mormons, Greek Orthodox, Seventh Day Adventists, or any other kind of believer in moral absolutes from within the Judeo/Christian tradition, flying planes into buildings, blowing themselves up in restaurants, firing rockets into cities, and setting up terrorist training camps in an effort to stamp out those with whom they disagree.

Indeed, Beastie's claim that belief in God creates an attitude of moral relativism is so utterly preposterous on its face, and so patently ahistorical, that it calls into question, yet again, Beasties critical thinking abilities and her credibility on any other issue relative to the Church and its teachings. The degradations of some Christians and Christian nations in the historical past, when fused with the state, were the result of the fusing of moral absolutism with state power, which provided the means to impose moral and religious imperatives upon others by force. This is Islam's primary problem today and throughout history, not its belief in absolutes, but its theological and historical fusion with the state.

A belief in fixed, moral principles can become connected to violence and repression only if the very nature of those principles contain within them the seeds of such violence and repression. Christianity's theology and ethical teaching condemn utterly any such behavior, and hence, Christians acting to impose their beliefs on others by force have bastardized and distorted their religion. Islamists need not feel this way because such behavior itself-literal jihad to spread Islam-has always been an integral part of their theology and cultural milieu. This is not the case with Judaism and Christianity, nor with many other religions.

The Salem witch trials were the product of moral absolutists who also held unaccountable state power and who had removed themselves a great ways from the actual teachings of the New Testament which would have precluded such conduct. It is indeed paradoxical that the absolute moral standards of New Testament ethics would have condemned the witch hunters themselves not only to moral repudiation and legal sanction in this life, but to a fearful accounting before God in the next. Moral relativists, on the other hand, make up their own ethical rules as they go along, and change them every day, if need be, as required by expediency and the will to power's need to expand and remove resistance to its demands.

Beastie here, yet again, resorts to the same, tired old Madalyn Murray O' Hairesque shibboleths, cultural slanders, and slipshod philosophizing in an attempt to impugn the dreaded Christians (read "conservatives") who stand in the way of the glories that could be ours if only we would accept...moral relativism.

Secularist liberals do have good reason to fear conservative Christians alright, but not physically (indeed, as the history of the last century, and the last few decades of that century, make clear, the reality is normally precisely the opposite, especially if one has not yet been born and cannot as as yet defend oneself) The risk free world of consequence free indulgence, long sought by the cultural Left, remains the same adolescent fantasy it has always been, and is known to be because of the critique of it from an oppositional culture that believes in fixed, immutable standards governing human relations that are intrinsic to the universe and to which all with understanding of them are accountable.

This can be bastardized, because of human nature and weakness, but in and of itself is at the same time both a strong underlying internal restraint to such bastardization and a direct moral imperative against it.

Secular moral relativism involves no such restraints or delimiting principles. The individual will is sovereign. Islamists are not Nietzscheans but fundamentalist religious fanatics (much like western environmentalist) who believe, not that the ends justify the means (relativism), but precisely that the means have been prejustified by absolute divine moral sanction.

It is not then, the absolutism contained in morality, but the nature and context of that morality, that is important. Nazi morality was antinomian, inverted with respect to normative Christian society,yet is was still a moral system, an absolute one, even if turned upon its head (the Nazis, it should also be pointed out, were relativists, believing only in power, will, and ideology, but, as is usual, value relativism always ends in coercion and repression. That, after all, is precisely what "political correctness", especially as applied to "multiculturalism", is).

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:39 pm
by _Coggins7
Of course this specific example isn't likely to happen. But you predictably miss my point. My point isn't that one particular thing will happen at all. Here's the real question, IN FACT:

How likely is it that True Believers in the LDS church would be willing to abandon their own native sense of morality to accommodate what "God" tells their leaders and affirms to them via "revelation"?

For True Believers, I would say the likelihood approaches 100%.

Of course True Believers only represent a portion of active LDS. There are many LDS who would be quite willing and able to draw a line.

You have already told us that you would be willing to reconsider your moral aversion to sex between adult men and male children if GOD told the prophet it was ok, and then verified that to you. So you are, IN FACT, a True Believer who has already answered this question for your particular case. The only question is what percentage of LDS would agree with you?



Well, finially. Welcome to Scratchland Beastie. You have now shown yourself to be the tendentious, paranoid, demagogic,
disingenuous, bomb throwing gasbag some of us here long suspected you of being, but were willing to go with the flow of some benefit of doubt for a while, until the cows begin coming home in earnest.

That point has arrived.

It is now clear that good faith discussion and debate with you is impossible, as you bring neither good faith nor, at this point, so much as a modicum of intellectual seriousness to your posts.

This is OK, as it means I need no longer converse with you, as with Harmony and a few others, but once in many moons, just to keep myself entertained now and then, on dark and stormy nights.

You have followed the predictable path of the exmo: from extreme to extreme and from disagreement to hatred to paranoia.

The next step is symbolically wiping your ass with garments on Temple Square during General Conference.

Hope to see you there Beastie.

This is why I will not be civil or serious with certain individuals who do not deserve such considerations. My MO is now to simply cease discussion with them, as opposed to my past practice of continual rancorous debate. Jersey Girl, here's the answer to your questions.

I have never said a cross word to any critic who has been willing to engage my in civil, critical discourse and meet me half way, being both intellectually serious and sincere in his disagreements with the Church.

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:00 pm
by _Coggins7
Of course, Beastie could not be understood to have caught a full blown case of the Slack Scratch Fever unless she "went all the way" and engaged in some flat footed lying and distortion of an apologists words in a broad daylight attempt to misrepresent his statements.

Here's what Wade said:



I am fine with the way you restated your fear. So, let's restate the question: "How rational is this fear in terms of your average religionist?"

In other words, what is the likelyhood of, say: 1) God telling the prophet of the LDS Church that it was benefitial for adult men to have sex with young males; 2) The prophet disclosing this to the Church; 3) God verifying to me and other LDS that what the prophet disclosed is A-Ok; 4) Me and other LDS agreeing that it is A-OK; and 5) Me and other LDS adult males having sex with young male children?


Here's Beastie's clever little slander:

You have already told us that you would be willing to reconsider your moral aversion to sex between adult men and male children if GOD told the prophet it was ok, and then verified that to you. So you are, IN FACT, a True Believer who has already answered this question for your particular case. The only question is what percentage of LDS would agree with you?



Beastie knows full well that the Gospel, of course, utterly precludes such a possibility, and no such revelation is ever going to come, or ever has. Wade's point is, (again, "of course", and we have to keep inserting the phrase "of course" into these things to keep the dumbing down process going full steam so that the exmo's can follow along adequately) is that the chance of the Prophet ever receiving a revelation directing the flying of planes into buildings or sending children strapped with explosives into Catholic churches is zero.

Beastie, Scratch, Merc, B&L, and perhaps a dozen or so others here become, quite literally, the Kos Kids of Mormondiscussions.com. It would be no large problem, at this point, for this core of devotees of all things anti-Mormon to start MoveOnMormon.org. All hate, all paranoia, all conspiracy, all the time.

Beastie has now not only finally collapsed intellectually, but morally as well.

Ah yes, the predictable path of the exmormon, from debasement to debasement...

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:40 pm
by _antishock8
Of course, it is approximately zero. Belief in God tends to create, again of course, a sense of moral absolutism, not moral relativism. Secular moral relativism exterminated well over one hundred million people during the 20th century, while those who believed in moral absolutes, Jews, died by the millions in the camps and languished in brutal police states run by the relativists who had planted its own agents within the ranks of the clergy within the religious system to which many belonged (in one of the relativists most imposing and long lasting creations).


Well. God created death in the first place. He has exterminated hundreds of trillions of lives and lifeforms. He's the biggest mass murderer I can think of. Hell, He's the biggest abortionist too. Y'all don't seem to care if God kills, but you get all pissy when his creations do what He programmed them to do. Sickos.

Anyway, If I recall correctly secularism is a pretty recent thing and it is religionists who have been killing in the name of their god for millenia. So, I'll raise your purported 100 million (CFR please), and purport that religionists have killed off a good billion or so (no reference). So. Ha. I totally just kicked your ass.

It was the moral relativists, not the absolutists, who have killed on the alter of the golden calf, tens of millions of the unborn since 1973, not the absolutists. I have yet to see--anywhere in the world, Jews, Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Mormons, Greek Orthodox, Seventh Day Adventists, or any other kind of believer in moral absolutes from within the Judeo/Christian tradition, flying planes into buildings, blowing themselves up in restaurants, firing rockets into cities, and setting up terrorist training camps in an effort to stamp out those with whom they disagree.


More religionists have abortions than atheists you idiot. You big f*****' idiot. That's right. I said you're an idiot. Whatcha gonna do? Huh? Huh, ya big idiot? Huh? *pushes Coggins* Huh? Huh? *pushes Coggins again* Huh??

Indeed, Beastie's claim that belief in God creates an attitude of moral relativism is so utterly preposterous on its face, and so patently ahistorical, that it calls into question, yet again, Beasties critical thinking abilities and her credibility on any other issue relative to the Church and its teachings. The degradations of some Christians and Christian nations in the historical past, when fused with the state, were the result of the fusing of moral absolutism with state power, which provided the means to impose moral and religious imperatives upon others by force. This is Islam's primary problem today and throughout history, not its belief in absolutes, but its theological and historical fusion with the state.

A belief in fixed, moral principles can become connected to violence and repression only if the very nature of those principles contain within them the seeds of such violence and repression. Christianity's theology and ethical teaching condemn utterly any such behavior, and hence, Christians acting to impose their beliefs on others by force have bastardized and distorted their religion. Islamists need not feel this way because such behavior itself-literal jihad to spread Islam-has always been an integral part of their theology and cultural milieu. This is not the case with Judaism and Christianity, nor with many other religions.

The Salem witch trials were the product of moral absolutists who also held unaccountable state power and who had removed themselves a great ways from the actual teachings of the New Testament which would have precluded such conduct. It is indeed paradoxical that the absolute moral standards of New Testament ethics would have condemned the witch hunters themselves not only to moral repudiation and legal sanction in this life, but to a fearful accounting before God in the next. Moral relativists, on the other hand, make up their own ethical rules as they go along, and change them every day, if need be, as required by expediency and the will to power's need to expand and remove resistance to its demands.

Beastie here, yet again, resorts to the same, tired old Madalyn Murray O' Hairesque shibboleths, cultural slanders, and slipshod philosophizing in an attempt to impugn the dreaded Christians (read "conservatives") who stand in the way of the glories that could be ours if only we would accept...moral relativism.

Secularist liberals do have good reason to fear conservative Christians alright, but not physically (indeed, as the history of the last century, and the last few decades of that century, make clear, the reality is normally precisely the opposite, especially if one has not yet been born and cannot as as yet defend oneself) The risk free world of consequence free indulgence, long sought by the cultural Left, remains the same adolescent fantasy it has always been, and is known to be because of the critique of it from an oppositional culture that believes in fixed, immutable standards governing human relations that are intrinsic to the universe and to which all with understanding of them are accountable.

This can be bastardized, because of human nature and weakness, but in and of itself is at the same time both a strong underlying internal restraint to such bastardization and a direct moral imperative against it.

Secular moral relativism involves no such restraints or delimiting principles. The individual will is sovereign. Islamists are not Nietzscheans but fundamentalist religious fanatics (much like western environmentalist) who believe, not that the ends justify the means (relativism), but precisely that the means have been prejustified by absolute divine moral sanction.

It is not then, the absolutism contained in morality, but the nature and context of that morality, that is important. Nazi morality was antinomian, inverted with respect to normative Christian society,yet is was still a moral system, an absolute one, even if turned upon its head (the Nazis, it should also be pointed out, were relativists, believing only in power, will, and ideology, but, as is usual, value relativism always ends in coercion and repression. That, after all, is precisely what "political correctness", especially as applied to "multiculturalism", is).


Image

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:56 pm
by _beastie
Here's some background information to this thread, from the thread Wade and Shermer:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 3&start=42

The conversation evolved from discussing Michael Shermer's explanation of how very intelligent people use their intelligence to defend erroneous beliefs they arrived at through a mechanism that does not involve their intelligence. I chose an extreme example to demonstrate, which was the NAMBLA example. Wade refused to answer my questions until he had rephrased them using the phrase IN MY OPINION which, given the extreme nature of my example, struck me as odd. So this is what I asked Wade:

2 - Given your compulsion to add the word "opinion" to these questions, just what could change your opinion on, say, this one:

"1. Is it your opinion that this is an erroneous idea?

Answer: yes. "

How about if God revealed to his prophet, and then verified to you, that it was good for men to have sex with young boys? Would your opinion change then?


Note: the erroneous idea referred to is Nambla's assertion that it is beneficial to young male children to have sex with adult men.

Wade's response:
I don't know for sure? It depends on the strength and nature of the verification. It's possible that I might change my opinion after reasoning the matter through. However, I tend not to give such valueless (to me) hypotheticals much thought, since they tend not to reflect my experience in this world.


Coggins asserted:
Beastie knows full well that the Gospel, of course, utterly precludes such a possibility, and no such revelation is ever going to come, or ever has. Wade's point is, (again, "of course", and we have to keep inserting the phrase "of course" into these things to keep the dumbing down process going full steam so that the exmo's can follow along adequately) is that the chance of the Prophet ever receiving a revelation directing the flying of planes into buildings or sending children strapped with explosives into Catholic churches is zero.


You, like Wade before you, conveniently ignore my point, which I have stated several times on this thread. The point isn't that one specific event (like flying a plane into a building or sanctioning adult men having sex with young boys) is likely to happen. Of course neither is likely to happen.

The point is that True Believers are willing to abandon their native sense or morality if GOD tells their leaders that X,Y, or Z is now sanctioned, and GOD affirms this to the believer via 'revelation'.

The history of the church - and the words of apologists today - demonstrate this is true. It is a fact. It cannot be debated. Early Mormons abandoned their native sense or morality to practice polygamy AT ALL. Some even abandoned it further and sanctioned married women "marrying" Joseph Smith. Apologists today defend these actions.

And, by the way, before I discovered these historical facts, I would have insisted that many of the behaviors practiced by Joseph, and "sanctioned" by God were also flatly contradictory with the "gospel".

Another example is that, regardless of how involved Brigham Young may or may have not been, the perpetrators of Mountains Meadow Massacre believed they were doing God's will. You can insist they were wrong, and were evil, but the fact is that these were faithful members of the LDS church and history clearly shows they believed - rightly or wrongly - that they were doing God's will. They were doing the same thing the Mormon polygamists had done before them, albeit in a more extreme fashion. They were abandoning their native sense or morality because they believed GOD had told their leaders, and them, to do so.

This is my point, and I consider all this blather about the likelihood of specific acts, like terrorism, to be deliberate attempts to divert attention from my point.