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Discussion on the "Surveillance" thread hasn't been all that productive, and so I though I would turn the discussion hopefully for good by addressing Scratch's underlining fear.

Best I can tell, his/her fear is that the LDS Church allegedly is inappropriately prying into people's private business and using that information in ways that may hurt people.

(This, ironically, is kind of the flip side to some LDS member's fear that former LDS allegedly wish to pry into the Church's private vault and use that information in ways that may hurt people. But, I will save this discussion for another thread.)

We know that Scratch's fear can, at least in some ways, be realized because he and Rollo have mentioned several people who have perceived themselves hurt by Church-gathered information.

The question is, how reasonable is Scratch's fear in terms of your average Church member? Does the "silent type" guy who falls asleep on the back row during Sunday School and Sacrament Meeting have anything to worry about? What about the dutiful sister who chooses to skip out on the candle-making session of Relief Society? Or, the Cub Scout and his dad who used the internet to find ways to best construct their pinewood derby entry?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

wenglund wrote:Or, the Cub Scout and his dad who used the internet to find ways to best construct their pinewood derby entry?

Heh, i just did that. Is there something wrong with it?

Sincerely, -WK-

Who Knows wrote:

wenglund wrote:Or, the Cub Scout and his dad who used the internet to find ways to best construct their pinewood derby entry?

Heh, I just did that. Is there something wrong with it?

Sincerely, -WK-

I certainly don't see anything wrong with it--which is kind'a my point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

wenglund wrote:Discussion on the "Surveillance" thread hasn't been all that productive, and so I though I would turn the discussion hopefully for good by addressing Scratch's underlining fear.

Best I can tell, his/her fear is that the LDS Church allegedly is inappropriately prying into people's private business and using that information in ways that may hurt people.

(This, ironically, is kind of the flip side to some LDS member's fear that former LDS allegedly wish to pry into the Church's private vault and use that information in ways that may hurt people. But, I will save this discussion for another thread.)

We know that Scratch's fear can, at least in some ways, be realized because he and Rollo have mentioned several people who have perceived themselves hurt by Church-gathered information.

The question is, how reasonable is Scratch's fear in terms of your average Church member? Does the "silent type" guy who falls asleep on the back row during Sunday School and Sacrament Meeting have anything to worry about? What about the dutiful sister who chooses to skip out on the candle-making session of Relief Society? Or, the Cub Scout and his dad who used the internet to find ways to best construct their pinewood derby entry?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The average catatonic member has nothing to fear from church security, since the average member is clueless about anything that would turn the spotlight on. It's the intellectual, especially the influential intellectual, who is noticed by church security.

The power of the press has spiked their guns, since the Murphy incident.

harmony wrote:

wenglund wrote:Discussion on the "Surveillance" thread hasn't been all that productive, and so I though I would turn the discussion hopefully for good by addressing Scratch's underlining fear.

Best I can tell, his/her fear is that the LDS Church allegedly is inappropriately prying into people's private business and using that information in ways that may hurt people.

(This, ironically, is kind of the flip side to some LDS member's fear that former LDS allegedly wish to pry into the Church's private vault and use that information in ways that may hurt people. But, I will save this discussion for another thread.)

We know that Scratch's fear can, at least in some ways, be realized because he and Rollo have mentioned several people who have perceived themselves hurt by Church-gathered information.

The question is, how reasonable is Scratch's fear in terms of your average Church member? Does the "silent type" guy who falls asleep on the back row during Sunday School and Sacrament Meeting have anything to worry about? What about the dutiful sister who chooses to skip out on the candle-making session of Relief Society? Or, the Cub Scout and his dad who used the internet to find ways to best construct their pinewood derby entry?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The average catatonic member has nothing to fear from church security, since the average member is clueless about anything that would turn the spotlight on. It's the intellectual, especially the influential intellectual, who is noticed by church security.

The power of the press has spiked their guns, since the Murphy incident.

I tend to agree with your general perception, but I am wondering if you think all influencial intellectuals in the Church have something to fear in terms of getting hurt by the Church? (I ask because your "Murphy" example sounds more like it is the Church being hurt, rather than the other way around--not that I necessarily agree)

By the way, what would you estimate to be the size of the LDS influencial intellectual population?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

wenglund wrote:Discussion on the "Surveillance" thread hasn't been all that productive, and so I though I would turn the discussion hopefully for good by addressing Scratch's underlining fear.

Best I can tell, his/her fear is that the LDS Church allegedly is inappropriately prying into people's private business and using that information in ways that may hurt people.

(This, ironically, is kind of the flip side to some LDS member's fear that former LDS allegedly wish to pry into the Church's private vault and use that information in ways that may hurt people. But, I will save this discussion for another thread.)

We know that Scratch's fear can, at least in some ways, be realized because he and Rollo have mentioned several people who have perceived themselves hurt by Church-gathered information.

The question is, how reasonable is Scratch's fear in terms of your average Church member? Does the "silent type" guy who falls asleep on the back row during Sunday School and Sacrament Meeting have anything to worry about? What about the dutiful sister who chooses to skip out on the candle-making session of Relief Society? Or, the Cub Scout and his dad who used the internet to find ways to best construct their pinewood derby entry?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Some great points here, Wade. I agree with you that the "average Church member"---i.e., the person who remains completely obedient and loyal---has virtually nothing to worry about, so long as s/he never gets into any trouble vis-a-vis the Church. (And I believe that "trouble" could include something like divorce, too.) The people who need to be worried are those who publish or otherwise voice any contrarian, problematic, or critical view points. In fact, if I were you, Wade, I would be just a trifle bit worried about the Center for the Study of Same-sex Attraction Disorders coming back to haunt me. Of course, you obviously remain very loyal to the Church, so you probably have nothing to worry about.

Mister Scratch wrote:Some great points here, Wade. I agree with you that the "average Church member"---I.e., the person who remains completely obedient and loyal---has virtually nothing to worry about, so long as s/he never gets into any trouble vis-a-vis the Church. (And I believe that "trouble" could include something like divorce, too.) The people who need to be worried are those who publish or otherwise voice any contrarian, problematic, or critical view points. In fact, if I were you, Wade, I would be just a trifle bit worried about the Center for the Study of Same-sex Attraction Disorders coming back to haunt me. Of course, you obviously remain very loyal to the Church, so you probably have nothing to worry about.

So, what all would you include under the term "trouble"?

What would you estimate to be the size of the "troubling" LDS population?

And, most importantly, what kinds of "hurt" do you see allegedly caused by the Church to that "troubling" population, and what do you estimate is, or will be, the level of severity and frequency of the hurt?

I ask because if it amounts to a mild niusense to maybe ten people over a decade in the Church, then is there really and rationally that much to fear and get exercised about?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Who Knows wrote:

wenglund wrote:Or, the Cub Scout and his dad who used the internet to find ways to best construct their pinewood derby entry?

Heh, I just did that. Is there something wrong with it?

I did, too. Did you know that one can buy a used champion racer on eBay? ;)

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

Who Knows wrote:

wenglund wrote:Or, the Cub Scout and his dad who used the internet to find ways to best construct their pinewood derby entry?

Heh, I just did that. Is there something wrong with it?

I did, too. Did you know that one can buy a used champion racer on eBay? ;)

Haha, i didn't know that. That might be crossing the line though...

harmony wrote:

wenglund wrote:Discussion on the "Surveillance" thread hasn't been all that productive, and so I though I would turn the discussion hopefully for good by addressing Scratch's underlining fear.

Best I can tell, his/her fear is that the LDS Church allegedly is inappropriately prying into people's private business and using that information in ways that may hurt people.

(This, ironically, is kind of the flip side to some LDS member's fear that former LDS allegedly wish to pry into the Church's private vault and use that information in ways that may hurt people. But, I will save this discussion for another thread.)

We know that Scratch's fear can, at least in some ways, be realized because he and Rollo have mentioned several people who have perceived themselves hurt by Church-gathered information.

The question is, how reasonable is Scratch's fear in terms of your average Church member? Does the "silent type" guy who falls asleep on the back row during Sunday School and Sacrament Meeting have anything to worry about? What about the dutiful sister who chooses to skip out on the candle-making session of Relief Society? Or, the Cub Scout and his dad who used the internet to find ways to best construct their pinewood derby entry?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The average catatonic member has nothing to fear from church security, since the average member is clueless about anything that would turn the spotlight on. It's the intellectual, especially the influential intellectual, who is noticed by church security.

The power of the press has spiked their guns, since the Murphy incident.

So remarkably it's the smart people who can get in trouble while the rest of the Church is mostly mindless drones. Could there be a bit of bias here as this board is filled with the disaffected who like to believe (rightly or wrongly) that they're the intellectuals of the bunch?

The Few. The Proud. The Anti's.