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Would anyone like to posit a falsifiable proposition regarding the LDS Church, and make a concerted attempt to run it through the paces of "serious and rational" debate once again?

Please feel free to state your propositions here clearly and legibly.

1.?

One falsifiable position might be the notion of Nephites and Lamanites running wild over the North American continent. As many apologists have noted, this is the belief of many Mormons and it is false, and if it were the claim of the Book of Mormon, then the Book of Mormon would be falsified.

As far as actual matters of doctrine, how on earth could you have a falsifiable belief? Here's a good example:

Sagan once asked the Dali Lama what he would do if science was able to disprove a central tenet of their Buddhist faith, and he replied, "Tibetan Buddhism would have to change." Sagan pressed him further. "Even if it were a really central tenet, like reincarnation?", he asked. "Even then," said the Dali Lama. However, he added with a twinkle, "it's going to be hard to disprove reincarnation." Which Sagan readily acceded.

The church would never hold a position that could really be proven wrong. That's one reason why it can't be taken seriously.

A "rational" debate with someone who insists that the burden of proof belongs not on cult believers, but on those skeptical of the cult's most outlandish claims, demands that inherently unfalsifiable negatives be falsified entirely without reference to empirically established facts, and who claims absolute "knowledge" through occult sources?

Gee, I can't imagine why you're not getting more takers, bro. Shocker. What other explanation could there be other than that we're all cowardly ignoramuses in the gall of bitterness...?

Once again, the evil anti-Mormon ship goes down!

Gadianton wrote:The church would never hold a position that could really be proven wrong. That's one reason why it can't be taken seriously.

I think dying could prove it wrong. Also, the death of all of the Apostles before the keys can be passed on, a total genocide of the Jews and/or the Native Americans, the Rapture, the arrival of the Scientology aliens, Joseph coming back from the dead and saying he made it all up, the Vogons blowing up the planet to make way for a new hyperspace bypass. Lots of options.

Hi Coggins,

Doesn't it make more sense, given that you're the one setting the terms for the debate, for you to propose some falsifiable propositions and let others have at them?

-Chris

As far as I'm concerned, there are some falsifiable beliefs that the LDS church holds which have already been falsified a billion times over. Case closed.

1. The LDS church still teaches, and has always taught, that Noah's Flood was real, that it actually happened, that it covered the entire Earth, and that Noah's family were all that survived of the human race, through the instrumentality of the floating wooden ark filled with breeding pairs of all the various animal species.

This has been falsified. A global, catastrophic flood that wiped out all of humanity except 8 people saved on a wooden ship, 5000ish years ago, did not happen.

2. The LDS church still teaches, and has always taught, that Adam was the first human being on Earth, around 6000 years ago, and that nothing on Earth died or could reproduce until Adam ate from the fruit of a particular tree, again about 6000ish years ago.

This has been falsified. Human beings have been Earth for well over 100,000 years, and things have been living, dying, and breeding on Earth for hundreds of millions to billions of years.

Case closed. The teachings are false. The credibility of the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators who have insisted that these teachings were literally true, is smashed.

ps: yes, I know, BCSpace continues to maintain he has won the evolution thing, but that's his own delusion. He got pwned, and everyone knows it. His very own "loophole" scripture, which he thinks he can use to justify his own bizarre theory, actually works against him. Each and every thing that was created could not have died until Adam "fell", forcing BCSpace either to redefine "all things" actually to exclude most living things that have ever existed on Earth till this time, or else redefine "created" such that most living things that have ever been on the Earth were here having never been "created".

Help me understand the essence of your invitation here Loran.

As i perceive it, it has to do with true and/or false, correct? In the terminology you use, "falsifiable" means: can be proven 'false', correct? Then it must follow that something 'true', could be proven *truthable*. Do i understand this correctly?

If so, not to derail the thread but what outside of the relm of the accepted sciences that we all commonly live by, would you consider exclusively *truthable* in Mormonism that is not so in the world of commonly practiced "falsifiable" Religions? Roger

Here are some:

1. "Healings" performed by Mormon priesthood holders are no more likely to heal than placebo.
2. Joseph Smith lied repeatedly.
3. Prophet Seers and revelators cannot tell the difference between revelation and non-revelation.
4. The Book of Mormon contains anachronisms.
5. Key revelations were substantially changed after being dictated from "God".
6. The Pearl of Great Price contains incorrect translations of Egyptian in the facsimiles.
7. The Mormon Word of Wisdom has no significant connection to health.
8. Following Moroni's promise has no statistically significant relationship to joining the Church.
9. Joseph Smith's teachings about Jesus are logically irreconcilable.
10. The Church is not fully forthcoming with its membership on key issues that might cause a decline in membership.

Coggins7 wrote:Would anyone like to posit a falsifiable proposition regarding the LDS Church, and make a concerted attempt to run it through the paces of "serious and rational" debate once again?

Please feel free to state your propositions here clearly and legibly.

1.?

1. Evidence that Joseph Smith admitted to being a fraud, making fradulent claims, or misrepresenting basic claims regarding the origins of the church he claims to have restored and "organized."

Discovering the gold plates, having scholars study, translate, and determine that the text does not match Joseph Smith' translation in any way, shape, or form.

Darn!! The angel took them back!! I guess we'll just have to use the Book of Abraham papyrii instead.