DiscussMormonism.com

There are so many question begging issues to be considered here that it is truly mind boggling. Especially for those with an interest in LDSism as do most posters, and readers--the larger number--here.

I have DC:132 in front of me at the moment:

1. "...I, the Lord, justified ... Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...Moses, David and Soloman, my servants...(re) having many wives and concubines--

3. "Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey...those who have this law revealed unto them... must obey the same.

4. "...I reveal... a new and an everlasting covenant; (that if you do not abide) then are ye damned; no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

34. "God commanded Abraham, and Sarah, gave Hagar to Abraham to wife...therefore....fulfilling...the promises.

35. "Was Abraham...under condemnation?...Nay; for I the Lord commanded it.

37. "Abraham received concubines...for righteousness...they have entered into their exaltation... (and) sit upon thrones, and are...gods.

38. "David...Soloman...and Moses my servants, also many other of my servants from the beginning of creation...received many wives and concubines ...and did not sin...(except) in things not recevied from me.

61. "...if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espose the second...he is justfied...

62. "And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law...they belong to him...

64. "...if any man teaches...(his wife) the law of my priesthood...and she does not administer unto him...she shall be destroyed...for I will desroy her...

There, in a condensed form is the foundation of FLDSism as found in the Doctrine and Covenants of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," commonly known as the "Mormon Church," attended by Mormons.

I am in the deepest of sympathy for the FLDS members on public display. I question the tactics used to take women and children from their homes. Then seperate child from parent with seemingly no regard for natural instinct of human (and animal) bonding. I question the whistle blowing and "hoax" involved...

Yet, I see many attitudes and practices, very familiar that disturb me. Particularly the conformity to dress and response standards--while in the extreme in the Compound--I think they could be closer to the wishes of LDS hiearchy than might, publicly be let out:

"Our Prophet speaks for, and with God." Body adornement, modest attire, facial hair, "just bear your testimony". The obvious subservience of women. The prominent display of Church leader's pictures through out their homes; all such are abided in Mormonism in varying degrees.

Does the end (liberation) justify the means (hoax)? It does at the core of Mormonism (murder Laban). So, why not here?

One segment of last night's news stated, "it is abuse to condition a child to self destructive behaviour." Indoctrination that attempts to "enslave"--a most strong verb, one that could be less dramic might be, unduly-influence--is not in the best interest of the psyche health of the child. The objective and consequence of "indoctrination" is to perpetuate, in this case, the abuse (evil)

One does not have to have experienced a lot of LDSism to have encountered at least a smigin of strong influence, some times bordering on intimidation, and threat. Of course the ultimate being expulsion from Heaven for the disobedient. As these women sadly demonstrate,

Would any Doctor of mental health not find such a heaven/hell suggestion well stepping beyond the bounds of responsible mentoring/parenting?

I think LDS leaders must be in serious prayer-and-fasting concerning the ramifications of these dramatic opening scenes... Warm regards, Roger

Thanks Roger - as always a great post.
Indoctrination that attempts to "enslave" leaped out at me

regards,
tulmult
(thestyleguy)

Thanks Guy. I think it unfortunate, yet understandable, that the Original LDS Church takes such a self-centred defensive role in this religio-socio debacle. LDSism shows absolutely no compassion, or acknowledges their kinship with the FLDS Church.

The total concern of Salt Lake City Mormonism is: "PLEASE, do not confuse US with THEM!" Deseret News seems to be quite on top of this happening, wirh a "Comment" section following their articles that publish some very interesting opinions. Many calling SL Inc. to task.

Meanwhile SL Inc has posted GA Cook on YouTube (a site blocked from BYU :-o) making a public appeal to differentiate the two groups... A rather weak attempt that denies any relationship what-so-ever. Not a lot of honesty or integrity displayed in this nervous desparate appeal.

IMSCO, LDSism should divulge their polygamist history, what they suffered, and why in self-preservation they abandoned the practice. At the same time they should acknowledge "The Principle" is still in the book, and practiced in a modified version wherein a male can be "sealed" to as many women as he legally marries. OTOH, a women can only be "sealed" to one man. Des News is worth checking out.

I am surprised there seems so little interest here?? Warm regards, Roger

Hey Roger,

Great topic!

If the church wants to separate itself from the FLDS church it needs to come clean, acknowledge the mistake and perversions, and make some changes.

It could start by:

Removing D&C 132 and replacing it with the original scripture on MONOGAMY found in the former Book of Commandments 101:4.

Stop the practice of sealing men to multiple women, OR start sealing women to multiple men as well.

Admit polygamy was a very unhealthy, unholy mistake.

Stop disallowing women to get a sealing cancellation after a divorce (unless she is going to resealed), and stop requiring her former husband to continue to control her life by needing his permission to get a cancellation. (What sort of nonsense is this anyway)?

STOP teaching the idea that God has an invisible harem who will procreate for eternity.

Unequivocally state that polygamy is not an eternal practice and as stated in the Book of Mormon, is an abomination (even if God needs it to be practiced for a time... yeah right).

Until then, the church needs to realize that there is little difference between itself and the FLDS church... differences that are only a matter of degree.

:-)

~dancer~

truth dancer wrote:Hey Roger,

Great topic!

If the church wants to separate itself from the FLDS church it needs to come clean, acknowledge the mistake and perversions, and make some changes.

It could start by:

Stop the practice of sealing men to multiple women, OR start sealing women to multiple men as well.

Admit polygamy was a very unhealthy, unholy mistake.

Stop disallowing women to get a sealing cancellation after a divorce (unless she is going to resealed), and stop requiring her former husband to continue to control her life by needing his permission to get a cancellation. (What sort of nonsense is this anyway)?

STOP teaching the idea that God has an invisible harem who will procreate for eternity.

Unequivocally state that polygamy is not an eternal practice and as stated in the Book of Mormon, is an abomination (even if God needs it to be practiced for a time... yeah right).

Until then, the church needs to realize that there is little difference between itself and the FLDS church... differences that are only a matter of degree.

:-)

~dancer~

Thanks TD, How come your thoughts hit homers?!

Removing D&C 132 and replacing it with the original scripture on MONOGAMY found in the former Book of Commandments 101:4.

Tell us more! Where is this available? I want one! That section SHOULD be scanned into Comments in Des News re this topic!! WOW!!

"Unequivocally state that polygamy is not an eternal practice and as stated in the Book of Mormon, is an abomination (even if God needs it to be practiced for a time... yeah right).

Interesting dichotomy... Which "should" take precedence? The words of Mormon on gold plates, or the words of Joseph Smith quilled on paper? Is there a New Revelation in order? Better at the hands of a New Prophet than at the hands of New Fed Legislation, I would think...

You make excellent points. IF only LDSism posted real-jobs rather than just busy-work for retirees. You'd be on the Board! Warm regards Roger

An important spot in 132: 7 that needs to be adressed:

....... and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the ikeys of this priesthood are conferred.....

The FLDS never have had the authority to perform any of their ordinances.

Hey Roger... :-)

In the Book of Commandments published in 1835, unanimously declared doctrine during General Conference, included the scripture:"Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again" (section 101, page 251, 1835 edition).

In 1876 this section was removed and replaced by the current section 132. (Gag). Joseph Smith's polygamy "revelation" was published in 1852 when at this time they admitted to the public that they were in fact engaging in the sick behavior. If I recall correctly, Joseph Smith's first affair (that is recorded), happened sometime around 1833 but the "revelation" supposedly occurred in 1843.

Doesn't quite add up. (sigh)

I'm thinking the church would be well to call it a mistake and return to the original teachings.

~dancer~

The FLDS never have had the authority to perform any of their ordinances.

LOL.. Gaz, you do realize that your particular branch of Mormonism is considered the straying tribe by the FLDS right?

As strongly as you believe your church is the "real" one and only true church, the FLDS believe it is theirs.

Sounds to me like this scripture is the desperate hope of a leader who desires power and authority to keep the women he desires for himself. :-(

~dancer~

truth dancer wrote:In the Book of Commandments published in 1835, unanimously declared doctrine during General Conference, included the scripture:"Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again" (section 101, page 251, 1835 edition).

[snip]

I'm thinking the church would be well to call it a mistake and return to the original teachings.

I'm wondering how many of those with power really know this? Or have thought of it this way?

Gazelam wrote:An important spot in 132: 7 that needs to be adressed:

....... and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the ikeys of this priesthood are conferred.....

The FLDS never have had the authority to perform any of their ordinances.

Gaz, i think there are other things as well to be addressed in this section. Initially, and i suppose all else depends on this... Can this missive rationally be taken seriously? Reading, and contemplating this over the last few days leads me to see, once again and more so, the absurd and preposterous claims of Joseph Smith to be in such direct communication with "God": "Behold and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter." (V2)

This 66 verse monologue of "God" agrandizing Joseph Smith as THE appointed-annointed, is without presedence. Except in the mythology of the Old Testament wherein a jealous, angry, vengeful "God" demands the eradication of those believing in other "Gods", and promising land to "His" favoured folk.

That Joseph Smith supposedly had God granted power (keys) to "...seal blessings AND curses upon individual persons, for time and all eternity..." is reminiscent of Jim Jones' claims to his people.

As long as such deception remains at the core of Mormonism as a truth, repeated by succssive "Prophets", and held over the heads of LDS members to extricate obedience, AND funds to participate in unholy temple rites, the whole perfunctory purpose is nothing less than extortion. IMSCO. Buyer beware!

I am not in this indictment suggesting there is no good in Zion. There is wisdom to be found in the Book of Mormon, and the DC as well as not. IF/WHEN LDS Corp. does a thorough, honest, unprejudiced R&D study and analysis of itself, and removes the guilt, exclusivity, self-righteous factors, too, its empty promises, and becomes an unpredudiced and open society of friends, it could, with its institutional structure serve a very useful social service. Maybe this Texas debacle will lead to that end? Why not? Warm regards, Roger