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I saw mention on MAD that one of the positive aspects of the Church is the "high moral conduct" that is evident in LDS members. What precisely is "high moral conduct" for LDS members?

No fornication? Honesty (were you a missionary -- were you honest?)? Not drinking? What?

What precisely do LDS members think their "high moral conduct" is?

My thoughts on morality is that our mirror neurons play a key role in morality -- that to empathize is an essential component, and that morality evolved through cultural and biological processes (reciprocity). I don't think any religion (or lack thereof) has a market on it.

What say you?

Moniker wrote:I saw mention on MAD that one of the positive aspects of the Church is the "high moral conduct" that is evident in LDS members. What precisely is "high moral conduct" for LDS members?

No fornication? Honesty (were you a missionary -- were you honest?)? Not drinking? What?

What precisely do LDS members think their "high moral conduct" is?

My thoughts on morality is that our mirror neurons play a key role in morality -- that to empathize is an essential component, and that morality evolved through cultural and biological processes (reciprocity). I don't think any religion (or lack thereof) has a market on it.

What say you?

I agree. My definition of "high morals" is completely different today than when in the LDS church. Morality in Mormonism seems inherently strawman -- the strawman being "God." In other words, Mormon morality is when a person behaves as Mr. Straw says they should, anything different is immoral.

One behavior that is highly immoral in Mormonism is extra-marital sex. To me, there is nothing more moral than two committed people willingly sharing their passions with each other -- regardless of whether there is a paper that says they are "married."

A behavior that I find immoral in Mormonism today is the ingrained attitude that they have the "one and only right way to live," and that plays out in relationships with others. This chronic judgmentalism is, in my opinion, one of the most immoral behaviors humankind can do. I will grant that it is not exclusive to Mormons, but very well groomed.

So "morality" is subjectively defined, and I just believe it is quite different than the way it is defined by those that claim a unique guidance by "God" -- the ultimate strawman.

No fornication?

Good start.

Honesty

You're on a roll Moniker.

Not drinking?

I wouldn't posit this as directly related to morality unless the drinking is irresponsible (and of course, with a powerful psychoactive drug, there is always a risk). I think the WoW is more about a covenant relationship with God, then either health or morality per se.

What precisely do LDS members think their "high moral conduct" is?

You're list started out quite nicely. Why did you stop?

My thoughts on morality is that our mirror neurons play a key role in morality

And now the pretense begins...

-- that to empathize is an essential component, and that morality evolved through cultural and biological processes (reciprocity). I don't think any religion (or lack thereof) has a market on it.

And "poof!" morality, as something that transcends genes and whimsical interpretations of natural selection vanishes away.

I find the idea that the abstractions of moral philosophy, ethics, and theology evolved, in any direct Darwinian sense, to be utterly unpersuasive (and happily, bereft of empirical scientific justification).

Fascinating the present rage for defining humankind ever further down to the level of animal life, as nothing more than their biology, from the animal rights movement to the extreme reductionism of Dawkins, Sagan, Dennett, Wilson et al. I wonder what the end of this might eventually be?

I agree. My definition of "high morals" is completely different today than when in the LDS church. Morality in Mormonism seems inherently strawman -- the strawman being "God." In other words, Mormon morality is when a person behaves as Mr. Straw says they should, anything different is immoral.

The above is my definition of intellectual vacuity. But such is so typical in this forum, that simply pointing out further instances of it becomes tiresome.

One behavior that is highly immoral in Mormonism is extra-marital sex. To me, there is nothing more moral than two committed people willingly sharing their passions with each other -- regardless of whether there is a paper that says they are "married."

I actually haven't run across this paper thin sexual revolution era rationalization in ages. This does show, however, that while some of us do grow up, intellectually and morally, as our chronological age increases, some of us, well, the above speaks for itself.

A behavior that I find immoral in Mormonism today is the ingrained attitude that they have the "one and only right way to live,"

How can this be immoral, unless I force it upon you?

and that plays out in relationships with others. This chronic judgmentalism is, in my opinion, one of the most immoral behaviors humankind can do. I will grant that it is not exclusive to Mormons, but very well groomed.

Bishoric sounds like an NEA lobbyist ranting against abstinence education. Must we wade through this intellectually squishy, facile, morally mealy liberalism yet again?

So "morality" is subjectively defined,

How convenient...

Well, if you consider high moral conduct by boycotting a store because it isn't LDS owned, or by not allowing someone that isn't LDS to play in sports, yeah I would go along with high moral conduct.

searching for and ferreting out for extreme, isolated incidents that, in and of themselves, are unrepresentative of the religion of which those engaging in such acts a members, is a specialty of demagogues, but not of serious minds.

Coggins7 wrote:

No fornication?

Good start.

Honesty

You're on a roll Moniker.

What is immoral about having sex outside marriage? It's just 'cause God says so? That's it? Right?

Not drinking?

I wouldn't posit this as directly related to morality unless the drinking is irresponsible (and of course, with a powerful psychoactive drug, there is always a risk). I think the WoW is more about a covenant relationship with God, then either health or morality per se.

Well, I don't think it has anything to do with morality either. I was just not sure what behaviors or whatnot LDS attributed their morals to. I was throwing that one out, 'cause to be perfectly honest I have no idea what they mean when they talk about LDS morality.

What precisely do LDS members think their "high moral conduct" is?

You're list started out quite nicely. Why did you stop?

'Cause I wanted someone else that is LDS, or ex-LDS tell me what precisely their "high morality" actually is. I'm not up on it seeing that my ethics were not transmitted through scripture or religion.

My thoughts on morality is that our mirror neurons play a key role in morality

And now the pretense begins...

Do you know what mirror neurons are, Coggins? You do recognize that those that do not empathize (or relate -- get into the mindset of others) may not recognize when they hurt others? Do you understand that? I think the ability to recognize our actions and how they impact us and others is what morality in its simplest form is.

What is the purpose of morals, Coggins? Is it just to go through the motions 'cause God said so? Or is there a reason we should be moral (whatever that entails)?

-- that to empathize is an essential component, and that morality evolved through cultural and biological processes (reciprocity). I don't think any religion (or lack thereof) has a market on it.

And "poof!" morality, as something that transcends genes and whimsical interpretations of natural selection vanishes away.

Noooo.... morality is essential to human relations Coggins. What use is morals without the social aspect of it? Morality/ethics come into play when we deal with others, Coggins. In light of that it is easy to see how morality evolved as social orders did. Do you think all cultures have the same code of moral conduct as they always did? Did they change in some manner as humanity progressed? Why would that be? It's for survival purposes that we must learn to cooperate and interact with each other.

What I think is funny is that Mormons claim (and many Mormons believe) that Mormon conduct matches their stated code of conduct. In other words Mormonism says you should not fornicate--therefore Mormons do not fornicate. Although this may be true for many, even a majority of Mormons, if you are paying any attention you will know that it is very far from the truth that all Mormons do not fornicate.

The truth is, a large number of Mormons are fornicating, committing adultery and everything in between. There is a massive self deception going on. This is a very trick slight of hand. Because it allows Mormons to feel a sense of moral superiority--but that feeling is based on a false premise.

What is immoral about having sex outside marriage? It's just 'cause God says so? That's it? Right?

Interesting question. The Gospel does not teach that anything is moral or immoral because God says so. God identifies to us standards, conditions, and actualities in the universe that we are then free to conform ourselves to or ignore. Sexual morality is one of a class of principles that may not be obvious to human beings but which is required of us if we are to be happy in this life (to a higher, more fulfilling degree) and have eternal life beyond this one. It is not immoral because God says so, but because it is; God identifying that state of affairs so that we can choose to live a higher or lower law in this life.

One would think, however, that God, being God, would be trustworthy in these matters.

Do you know what mirror neurons are, Coggins? You do recognize that those that do not empathize (or relate -- get into the mindset of others) may not recognize when they hurt others? Do you understand that? I think the ability to recognize our actions and how they impact us and others is what morality in its simplest form is.

Great. Now Moniker's letting Bundy, Dahmer, and Gacy of the hook. This is where liberalism leads....



White House

at is the purpose of morals, Coggins? Is it just to go through the motions 'cause God said so? Or is there a reason we should be moral (whatever that entails)?

Morality is the structural integrity of relationship. It is, in a Gospel sense (this is my own definition) that aspect of our relationships with one another that direct and channel them towards our happiness and eternal progression. It is that which creates, draws out, cultivates, and amplifies character in ourselves and others.

Noooo.... morality is essential to human relations Coggins. What use is morals without the social aspect of it? Morality/ethics come into play when we deal with others, Coggins. In light of that it is easy to see how morality evolved as social orders did.

Yes, especially without empirical or historical evidence in an ex post facto manner...

Do you think all cultures have the same code of moral conduct as they always did? Did they change in some manner as humanity progressed? Why would that be? It's for survival purposes that we must learn to cooperate and interact with each other.

Interesting Moniker, as humans have survived for thousands of years under a almost continual regime of bloodshed, slaughter, war, genocide, and mayhem.

Animals have also survived for millions of years killing, eating, and predating one another.

Sociobiologially, morality is necessary for in-group, tribal, and kinship ties, and even national ties, but for little else. Historically, morality has been only for those within the tribe. For those outside the tribe. we'll see.

Morality, like righteousness itself, is a given; a cosmic axiom. God identifies this to us (regardless of our particular preferences regarding it). We accept his identifications (commandments, counsel, teachings of prophets etc.) or we do not.

John Larsen wrote:What I think is funny is that Mormons claim (and many Mormons believe) that Mormon conduct matches their stated code of conduct. In other words Mormonism says you should not fornicate--therefore Mormons do not fornicate. Although this may be true for many, even a majority of Mormons, if you are paying any attention you will know that it is very far from the truth that all Mormons do not fornicate.

The truth is, a large number of Mormons are fornicating, committing adultery and everything in between. There is a massive self deception going on. This is a very trick slight of hand. Because it allows Mormons to feel a sense of moral superiority--but that feeling is based on a false premise.

So true. As I entered the single world years ago, many friends suggested doing the internet dating thing. The irony was that they said if I was just out for booty, do the LDS Singles.com, but for serious relationships, do the others. I never did the LDS Singles gig, because I wasn't up for the whole guilt process they go through, and actually met my fiance on Match.com.