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What is the difference between Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs? Are there any?

Joseph Smith claimed to be the prophet of the one and only true church. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith claimed divine revelation directly from Jesus Christ. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith claimed he was doing God's will. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith sent men away and then "married" their wives. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith "married" several underage girls. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith asked men to give him their wives. Same with WJ. (Seems true believing men are OK with this).

Joseph Smith had thirty to forty "wives." Similar to WJ...not sure how many he has these days but I think the numbers are similar.

In Joseph Smith's polygamy practice women could change husbands and trade up. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith's followers would do anything he told them to do. Same with the followers of WJ.

Joseph Smith convinced girls and women that he would assure them and their families a place in the CKHL if they would be his. If I recall correctly this is similar to the teachings of WJ.

Joseph Smith and WJ both wholeheartedly embrace D&C 132 and hold this scripture as sacred.

Joseph Smith lied about his behavior. I think WJ did as well... not sure of direct evidence on this.

Both men broke laws and had to hide out for a while.

Both men had women who adored them.

Both men claimed that men and women (girls) were REQUIRED to accept polygamy in order to live in the CKHL.

Both men had absolute power and authority over their followers.

Both men believed they were above the law of the land.

Both men have tried to destroy the lives of, or excommunicate those who didn't go along with their dictates/commands.

Both men believed in the united order.

Both men are revered, nearly worshipped by followers.

Both men are considered loving, charasmatic, wonderful men by followers.

Both men had a bit of paranoia (or maybe just a realization that they were offending lots of people).

Both men required the wearing of garments 24/7 (albeit the LDS church has shortened them a bit in recent decades).

Both men believed their power and position was because they were chosen.

Both men claimed they were ushering in the return and reign of Jesus Christ.


I have a sense that any other man who behaved as did Joseph Smith would not get the free pass Joseph Smith gets by believers. The same folks who condemn Warren Jeffs praise Joseph Smith. I don't get it.

If Joseph Smith did it, it was because God wanted him to. If another man did it, it was because of Satan.

Are there any real differences between the two men? Are there any significant differences between WF's version/practice of polygamy and polygamy during the early days of the church?

~dancer~

I tend to look at it this way...

God is not swayed by the demands of the politicians or governments. God's commandments are unchanging, and if that means you have to break the law to do God's will, then so be it!

Between LDS and FLDS, which of the 2 religions has held fast to God's original restoration, despite the persecution of the government, and which of the 2 has deviated to succumb to political pressure?

The one that has succumbed is now flourishing with wealth and riches and power...all tools of Satan. The one that has held fast to the original restoration is mocked, persecuted and driven out...all the things that the enemies of God do to the One True Church.

Wouldn't you love to see a SLC-LDS and a FLDS member meet and compare spiritual witnesses/testimonies? Both would have sure fire knowledge that God had revealed to THEM that x church was the one true church and that the other had lost its way. Both would claim that the others testimony was a prompting of Satan, not of God. It really fascinates me how people just don't get this. Your spiritual witness is ANYTHING but unique.

truth dancer wrote:What is the difference between Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs? Are there any?

Joseph Smith claimed to be the prophet of the one and only true church. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith claimed divine revelation directly from Jesus Christ. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith claimed he was doing God's will. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith sent men away and then "married" their wives. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith "married" several underage girls. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith asked men to give him their wives. Same with WJ. (Seems true believing men are OK with this).

Joseph Smith had thirty to forty "wives." Similar to WJ...not sure how many he has these days but I think the numbers are similar.

In Joseph Smith's polygamy practice women could change husbands and trade up. Same with WJ.

Joseph Smith's followers would do anything he told them to do. Same with the followers of WJ.

Joseph Smith convinced girls and women that he would assure them and their families a place in the CKHL if they would be his. If I recall correctly this is similar to the teachings of WJ.

Joseph Smith and WJ both wholeheartedly embrace D&C 132 and hold this scripture as sacred.

Joseph Smith lied about his behavior. I think WJ did as well... not sure of direct evidence on this.

Both men broke laws and had to hide out for a while.

Both men had women who adored them.

Both men claimed that men and women (girls) were REQUIRED to accept polygamy in order to live in the CKHL.

Both men had absolute power and authority over their followers.

Both men believed they were above the law of the land.

Both men have tried to destroy the lives of, or excommunicate those who didn't go along with their dictates/commands.

Both men believed in the united order.

Both men are revered, nearly worshipped by followers.

Both men are considered loving, charasmatic, wonderful men by followers.

Both men had a bit of paranoia (or maybe just a realization that they were offending lots of people).

Both men required the wearing of garments 24/7 (albeit the LDS church has shortened them a bit in recent decades).

Both men believed their power and position was because they were chosen.

Both men claimed they were ushering in the return and reign of Jesus Christ.


I have a sense that any other man who behaved as did Joseph Smith would not get the free pass Joseph Smith gets by believers. The same folks who condemn Warren Jeffs praise Joseph Smith. I don't get it.

If Joseph Smith did it, it was because God wanted him to. If another man did it, it was because of Satan.

Are there any real differences between the two men? Are there any significant differences between WF's version/practice of polygamy and polygamy during the early days of the church?

~dancer~

Yes, Joesph Smith was a prophet and Warren Jeffs is obsiously not.

Scottie wrote:I tend to look at it this way...

God is not swayed by the demands of the politicians or governments. God's commandments are unchanging, and if that means you have to break the law to do God's will, then so be it!

Between LDS and FLDS, which of the 2 religions has held fast to God's original restoration, despite the persecution of the government, and which of the 2 has deviated to succumb to political pressure?

The one that has succumbed is now flourishing with wealth and riches and power...all tools of Satan. The one that has held fast to the original restoration is mocked, persecuted and driven out...all the things that the enemies of God do to the One True Church.

Wouldn't you love to see a SLC-LDS and a FLDS member meet and compare spiritual witnesses/testimonies? Both would have sure fire knowledge that God had revealed to THEM that x church was the one true church and that the other had lost its way. Both would claim that the others testimony was a prompting of Satan, not of God. It really fascinates me how people just don't get this. Your spiritual witness is ANYTHING but unique.

While she was not FLDS did here a podcast of a women who is part of polygamy, believes in Adam/God, Blood atonement and so on and her testimony sounded just like the "I know" at any LDS testimony meeting. She knows the LDS Church is in a state of apostasy.

Hey Rock...

Yes, Joesph Smith was a prophet and Warren Jeffs is obsiously not.

I'm not sure if you are joking or not. Hmmm...

If not, what would be obvious about Joseph Smith being a prophet?

Few people in the world see anything holy about Joseph Smith... can't be too obvious. If anything I would suggest most folks would say it is obvious Joseph Smith was, well, so NOT a prophet. ;-)

~dancer~

Scottie wrote:The one that has succumbed is now flourishing with wealth and riches and power...all tools of Satan. The one that has held fast to the original restoration is mocked, persecuted and driven out...all the things that the enemies of God do to the One True Church.

That observation is quite profound, Scottie.

Excellent post TD about the similarities between Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs!

Some dissimilarities - perhaps due to circumstances:

Joseph Smith was already the guy at the top of the power structure - whereas Warren had to skillfully manuever himself into power over other rivals, making him, perhaps, more dangerous.

Joseph was charismatic - Warren seems to have very little charm or charisma.

While both seem misogynistic - Warren seems to have taken his to extremely cruel depths - you've heard the story about his twisting his wife's braid in front of young men until she was screaming and then telling the boys "This is how obedient your wives should be to you."

Joseph seemed more fun loving - Warren sadistically cruel - i.e., killing all the dogs in community, torturing animals to death in front of small children (which is a common practicing in "mind control").

Warren's sexual abuse extended to boys - Joseph confined his to "marriages" to young girls.

Ugly comparisons.

truth dancer wrote:Hey Rock...

Yes, Joesph Smith was a prophet and Warren Jeffs is obsiously not.

I'm not sure if you are joking or not. Hmmm...

If not, what would be obvious about Joseph Smith being a prophet?

Few people in the world see anything holy about Joseph Smith... can't be too obvious. If anything I would suggest most folks would say it is obvious Joseph Smith was, well, so NOT a prophet. ;-)

~dancer~

Not joking, you should know that by now. I was thinking you were joking because your post is not accurate. If I'm not mistaken it was proven in a court of law that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. I also figured that you made such a long post because you really didn't want anyone to respond to each issue you brought forward. I'm not a Utah Mormon as you know, so I do not follow the added and changed history that is given by that church, I go by the history as it happened unchanged.

RockHeaded wrote:
Not joking, you should know that by now. I was thinking you were joking because your post is not accurate. If I'm not mistaken it was proven in a court of law that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. I also figured that you made such a long post because you really didn't want anyone to respond to each issue you brought forward. I'm not a Utah Mormon as you know, so I do not follow the added and changed history that is given by that church, I go by the history as it happened unchanged.

1. People lie, even under oath. Justice is often miscarried. Remember, OJ was acquited.
2. History is simply a recording of someone's observations, and is subject to the filter of the author. Columbus's invasion looks quite different to First Nation tribes than it does to those of us of European extraction.

Hey Rock,

Not joking, you should know that by now. I was thinking you were joking because your post is not accurate. If I'm not mistaken it was proven in a court of law that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. I also figured that you made such a long post because you really didn't want anyone to respond to each issue you brought forward. I'm not a Utah Mormon as you know, so I do not follow the added and changed history that is given by that church, I go by the history as it happened unchanged.

I didn't think you were joking but just wanted to check. :-)

I think there is a case to be made that Joseph Smith was not married to multiple women since the law did/does not accept the "marriages" of anyone but the first women to whom one is actually, legally married.

I think it is more accurate to state that Joseph Smith had one wife and many mistresses.

My list wasn't that long, I could have gone on... how about the fact that both WJ and Joseph Smith have the us vs them mentality? Or the fact that both men used fear as a motivator?

My post wasn't meant to argue point by point unless someone wanted. It was more about asking if there were any real differences between the two men as they existed in their prophetic role.

But I am curious as to why you think Joseph Smith is "obviously" a prophet?

:-)

~dancer~