DiscussMormonism.com

If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false..." (Joseph Fielding Smith "Doctrines of Salvation")

This is a really interesting conundrum for Mormons.

Not really, because all they have to do is say, "But Joseph wasn't a deceiver, so the rest of the conditional is irrelevant." I do think it is a good response to Mormons who think that anyone who becomes convinced that the church is not true should never talk about it ever again.

antishock8 wrote:If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false..." (Joseph Fielding Smith "Doctrines of Salvation")

This is a really interesting conundrum for Mormons.

More than one LDS leader has said something like this throughout it's history.

Well, what interests me is that it's been shown that Joseph Smith was not only a patent fraud, but an on-the-record liar, too. It's been exposed beyond question, and so... Joseph F. Smith's statement is particularly interesting because one has to determine if he was speaking as a man or as a prophet, no? In other words, you have a prophet of the Mormon church saying if THE prophet was a fraud then it should be exposed. Well, it has been exposed... What now?

antishock8 wrote:Well, what interests me is that it's been shown that Joseph Smith was not only a patent fraud, but an on-the-record liar, too. It's been exposed beyond question, and so... Joseph F. Smith's statement is particularly interesting because one has to determine if he was speaking as a man or as a prophet, no? In other words, you have a prophet of the Mormon church saying if THE prophet was a fraud then it should be exposed. Well, it has been exposed... What now?

For you perhaps it is beyond question. Others think it is as much beyond question that he was what he claimed. Others are in between.

Jason Bourne wrote:

antishock8 wrote:Well, what interests me is that it's been shown that Joseph Smith was not only a patent fraud, but an on-the-record liar, too. It's been exposed beyond question, and so... Joseph F. Smith's statement is particularly interesting because one has to determine if he was speaking as a man or as a prophet, no? In other words, you have a prophet of the Mormon church saying if THE prophet was a fraud then it should be exposed. Well, it has been exposed... What now?

For you perhaps it is beyond question. Others think it is as much beyond question that he was what he claimed. Others are in between.

I understand that. But, in light of Joseph F. Smith's statement, and the factual record of Joseph Smith's lies (polyandry), fraud (Book of Abraham), and deceit (Where to begin...)... How does a Mormon reconcile that? You have a prophet saying that if THE prophet is exposed as a fraud, as he has been, then... What?

antishock8 wrote:

Jason Bourne wrote:

antishock8 wrote:Well, what interests me is that it's been shown that Joseph Smith was not only a patent fraud, but an on-the-record liar, too. It's been exposed beyond question, and so... Joseph F. Smith's statement is particularly interesting because one has to determine if he was speaking as a man or as a prophet, no? In other words, you have a prophet of the Mormon church saying if THE prophet was a fraud then it should be exposed. Well, it has been exposed... What now?

For you perhaps it is beyond question. Others think it is as much beyond question that he was what he claimed. Others are in between.

I understand that. But, in light of Joseph F. Smith's statement, and the factual record of Joseph Smith's lies (polyandry), fraud (Book of Abraham), and deceit (Where to begin...)... How does a Mormon reconcile that? You have a prophet saying that if THE prophet is exposed as a fraud, as he has been, then... What?

Faithful believing Mormons have no problem with any of your red highlights. They see no lies, no fraud, no deceit. So as far as they are concerned, Joseph has not been exposed as a fraud.

harmony wrote:
Faithful believing Mormons have no problem with any of your red highlights. They see no lies, no fraud, no deceit. So as far as they are concerned, Joseph has not been exposed as a fraud.

I understand that. But in light of JFS's statement, and the documentation of Joseph Smith's lies... I just don't know how they do it.

For example, Coggins clearly understands that Joseph Smith's translation of the facsimiles as shown in the Book of Abraham is fraudulent. He knows it. We know it. Egyptologists know it. It is one of the clearest examples of his frauds that any 'contrarian' can provide. It is a demonstrable fraud. Period. No way around it. In light of that, and in light of JFS's statement... Well, how does a Mormon put up with that kind of reality?

I could not. It was clear to me that Joseph Smith had been exposed as a fraud, and I accepted it. How does a Mormon just not accept it?

antishock8 wrote:

harmony wrote:
Faithful believing Mormons have no problem with any of your red highlights. They see no lies, no fraud, no deceit. So as far as they are concerned, Joseph has not been exposed as a fraud.

I understand that. But in light of JFS's statement, and the documentation of Joseph Smith's lies... I just don't know how they do it.

For example, Coggins clearly understands that Joseph Smith's translation of the facsimiles as shown in the Book of Abraham is fraudulent. He knows it. We know it. Egyptologists know it. It is one of the clearest examples of his frauds that any 'contrarian' can provide. It is a demonstrable fraud. Period. No way around it. In light of that, and in light of JFS's statement... Well, how does a Mormon put up with that kind of reality?

I could not. It was clear to me that Joseph Smith had been exposed as a fraud, and I accepted it. How does a Mormon just not accept it?

They see it as a test that God is giving them. If they know about it, which for the most part, I doubt, they ignore it. They have more important things to do than worry about that, like doing their calling, raising their families, providing for their future... you know... stuff.

These little quips aren't meant for the unbelievers, but for the believers.

If the prophet issues such a bold challenge, then OBVIOUSLY it MUST be true! I mean, come on!

It's like when GBH made his famous "The Book of Mormon is either a true work of God or the biggest hoax we've seen!" (or something to that effect) statement.