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Hugh Nibley: When Crack Cocaine Meets Apologetics

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 3:13 am
by _CaliforniaKid
I mentioned in another thread Hugh Nibley apparently "writing under the influence." The following example will require a little explanation. Hugh Nibley's "Message of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers," published in BYU Studies, infamously argued for the "Scribes Did It" theory. There are three "Egyptian Alphabet" documents. One of them is in the hand of Joseph Smith, one in the hand of Phelps, and one in the hand of Cowdery. The three documents are very similar and appear to have been produced by simultaneous dictation. Nibley wants to argue that these documents were a preliminary exploration in which Joseph Smith and his scribes "worked it out in their minds" prior to asking for revelation. As such, he wants to present each of these three documents as a basically independent, uninspired production. Consider what he says below:

The interesting thing is the way the three men disagree in their interpretations, each going his own way. Take for example the one sign that is constantly being rehashed in all the "Grammar and Alphabet" writings, the well-known reed-sign, perhaps the most important and certainly the commonest of all hieroglyphic symbols. A special treatment of the reed-sign is tacked on at the end of each of the three copies. A comparison of the three texts is instructive.

Image

Each of these is interpreting the same sign, with no sovereign master-mind to bring them to a unity of the faith. Cowdery and Phelps hear different sounds and come up with different meanings. And Joseph freely lets them go their way while he goes his, each under obligation to "study it out in your mind" before asking for revelation. This is something that anti-Mormon writers have wilfully misinterpreted from the first.


I just love that last line. Let's repeat that: yes, folks, anti-Mormons have willfully misinterpreted this from the first.

Basically, what Nibley is arguing is that the three documents interpret the same sign in completely different ways. In fact, the documents don't even agree on whether the symbol is some variant of Za Ki on-hish or whether it's some variant of Ah-bra-oam! How damning! Or something. The trouble, of course, is that this is complete bull. Below are images of the actual documents. While they are certainly sloppy and contain omissions, they do not interpret the same sign differently. In fact, there are actually two signs here: the first is Za Ki on-hish and the second is Ah-bra-oam. Nibley's argument hardly even makes sense, let alone does it accurately represent the documents! This is the great Mormon apologist? The most charitable explanation I can think of is that he wrote this essay while doing a line or smoking a doobie!

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-Chris

Re: Hugh Nibley: When Crack Cocaine Meets Apologetics

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 3:41 am
by _Mercury
Image

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 3:44 am
by _Bond...James Bond
I want a photoshopped picture of someone with a crack pipe and a minature Book of Mormon stuck in the business end with smoke floating all around. I demand it!

So let it be written, so let it be done.


(This post went over my head otherwise.)

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:03 am
by _CaliforniaKid
Bond...James Bond wrote:(This post went over my head otherwise.)


I was afraid of that. I've hesitated to point this out because Nibley's argument is so nonsensical that I can hardly even explain it. I think he preferred it that way, actually. So long as he could sound like he was making sense, the less sense he actually made, the better! That way no anti-Mormon would bother rebutting him, and regular schmoes in the Church would be too intimidated to look into all this for themselves.

The Book of Abraham issue is complicated enough without apologists deliberately making things worse. It's a slam-dunk, but most people are frankly afraid to even try to understand it.

-Chris

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:59 am
by _Bond...James Bond
CaliforniaKid wrote:The Book of Abraham issue is complicated enough without apologists deliberately making things worse. It's a slam-dunk, but most people are frankly afraid to even try to understand it.

-Chris


I think you make a good point. Alot of people read "Egyptian hierogy...whatchamacallthems" or "Egyptology" or "papyrus" and the like and think it's something foreign and thus impossible to understand. Something about the Book of Mormon happening on our continent, being written by an American, and because the Church is so American-centric make the Book of Mormon stuff easier to digest and not so scary.

Re: Hugh Nibley: When Crack Cocaine Meets Apologetics

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:22 am
by _moksha
CaliforniaKid wrote:Basically, what Nibley is arguing is that the three documents interpret the same sign in completely different ways.
-Chris


Hey, the meaning of a story can be interpreted in different ways.


Besides, what if you were given a fragmentary passage in ancient Elvish? Would it's meaning not vary depending on the Sindarin or Noldarin dialects you spoke in trying to decipher its meaning?

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 3:53 pm
by _truth dancer
Hey Chris,

Well, the problem is you do not have twenty seven PhDs in various languages, nor have you written any books on all things Egyptian. If you did, you would know that Nibley makes perfect sense. Who are you to criticize a scholar such as Nibley?

In order to partake in a discussion of this sort you must first show that you are capable of, ummm, something, (I forget the rules and requirements).

;-)

I was one of those who read Nibley like he had the answers no one else could provide. I trusted him, thought he knew what he was talking about, and had no reason to doubt his integrity, until a few of his statements didn't ring true. I began to look up a few of his assertions (this was pre Internet), and discovered he was, well, lets just say he was "making claims not supported by facts," (as Obama would say).

I still notice some anger at myself for being so vulnerable and trusting. :-(

~dancer~

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:18 pm
by _Trevor
John Gee's defense of the Book of Abraham:

"Hey, I have a degree in Egyptology and you don't, so shut up!"

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:30 am
by _Coggins7
Mutual masturbation can be addictive guys...

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:42 am
by _cksalmon
Coggins7 wrote:Mutual ********* can be addictive guys...[1]


[1] FARMS apologist 1, Pro-LDS Material; as cited in FARMS apologist 3, Tangentially-Related Pro-LDS Material, quoting FARMS apologist 2, Unrelated Pro-LDS Material.