Born as 'Sinners'

[_JonasS]

I would be interested to hear a logical point of view from both Theist and Atheist regarding the Evangilical view that we as man are born of sin and that our Father is Satan.

"Are we "born sinners"? -- Posted by "Lessa 4"

Which was a result of; "Why are all these threads so negative?" -- Posted by "POS":

...From the message I am recieving in this thread, Mainstream Christians have the belief that only their religion is right and that they have to "reach out" to other "false doctrin"ated religions. Let me say what I believe to be false doctrine from what I have seen in here in the time I have been here.

I DO NOT believe we were born sinners. I do not believe God would create babies that are sinners. Babies are perfect, far more perfect than anyone. If I were to accept this and say ok, possibly there is a chance we are born in sin then decide to be BORN AGAIN (which is kinda ironic really), I can not accept that being baptised by MAN in a church created BY MAN will make me cleansed from the dirty evilness bound upon me from birth. Enough said.

I DO NOT believe Satan is our Father and we convert to Christ. If Satan were our father that would make Satan our creator. That would make Satan of more importance than Christ. As if to say we BEGUN with Satan and joined Jesus' team. In which case why would Satan need to tempt from the beginning? For he already has us all. ...

Which was a result of this post, number 6 which is from Ephesians 4:32 (Bible verse).

What do you all think regarding Satan being our Father and babies born of sin?


JonasS.

[_huckelberry]

I am familiar with an understanding that people are born in a situation which sin is a part of. I am not familiar with a belief we are born of sin. I am fairly familiar with mainstream Christian belief. My beliefs would be located in that general catagory.

The distinction might seem a bit fine. To my ears the distinction is very large. I doubt that when Jesus said certain accusers were children of Satan I doubt he was being literal. I think he was clarifing that being seed of Abraham was more importantly a spiritual thing than merely a physical thing. He was also rather bluntly saying his accusers were doing satans work.

My understanding of birth is that we receive the material of who we are from our parents culture people around us,other relatives. Sin is a part of that inheritance. I cannot see any part of us which is free of that inheritance.

Sure there are a wide variety of things we inherit. To speak only of inheriting sin would be speaking only of a piece of our inheritance. I think we should honor the positive parts as well as be aware of negative.

I went to the thread linked in the opening post. I think the ev missed the illogic of his argument that said that because we die we know therefore that we sin. LDS poster pointed it out ok but the Ev was so quick with his dogma quote list that he didn't notice.

A more usual argument from traditional view would be that it is observed that humans sin. I see two posiblities. one we are formed in the context of our birth and that context includes sin. This is the traditioal view. An alternative would be we are born in a pure context but broght sin with us from a previous source. This second sounds like born of satan and is defenitely not mainstream or tradional Christian belief. The traditional belief is we come from God in a human context which contains sin. We do not exist seperate from the human family. That family inheritance includes sin and is a family problem needing solution.

[_harmony]

Babies are innocent and sinless. They be created due to sin (fornication, adultery, rape), but they themselves are sinless, no matter how they are created.

[_msnobody]

We are all born sinners. Scripture tells us so, plus it isn't hard to see we fall very short of sinlessness.

[_Imwashingmypirate]

We are all born sinners. Scripture tells us so, plus it isn't hard to see we fall very short of sinlessness.

So you think babies fall short of sinlessness? Like, new born babies that have had no experience and have done nothing in their lifetime that deserves punishment?

[_Chap]

We are all born sinners. Scripture tells us so, plus it isn't hard to see we fall very short of sinlessness.

So you think babies fall short of sinlessness? Like, new born babies that have had no experience and have done nothing in their lifetime that deserves punishment?

The mainstream Christian doctrine of original sin (to which msnobody is almost certainly referring) is explained here, for instance:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

or here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... in_1.shtml

The CoJCoLDS explicitly disclaims belief in this doctrine.

[_Casslanpepci]

I put no. We are born with the capacity to commit sin but we are born sinless. As we get older, we begin to be "naughty" and thus this starts us on the path of sin. We may be born sinless, but all, without exception (excluding Jesus) have sinned and thus we come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

"And Jesus called a little child to him, and set him in the midst of them. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:2-3)

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 19:14 (13-15))

It would appear that Jesus himself thought that small children incapable of sinning as he used them to describe how we should be, in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And the only way we can be come as a little child in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, is to repent of our sins and be baptised.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

"And why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptised, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16)

[_Mercury]

We are all born sinners. Scripture tells us so, plus it isn't hard to see we fall very short of sinlessness.

Wow, what an easy way to control someone.

[_silentkid]

They be created due to sin (fornication, adultery, rape), but they themselves are sinless, no matter how they are created.

I be born in a test tube. Totally sinless.

[Guest]

I am familiar with an understanding that people are born in a situation which sin is a part of. I am not familiar with a belief we are born of sin.

My understanding of mainstream Christian belief is similar to huckelberry's above. I'm not familiar with any mainstream Christian belief that we are born "sinners" or our "father is Satan."

That's news to me.

My understanding is we're born into sin (according to mainstream Christian thought) the same way we are born into death--that is, that both are present in our spheres of existence. I view the concept of "original sin" having more to do with the Biblical concept of death and decay being introduced into life than a good-evil person thing.


Edited, to add, this is just one of many things I think Joseph Smith got wrong, and misinterpreted.