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I didn't want to derail too much from the already derailed thread. ;P

When I think about sexual preference, I can't imagine changing, but I'm not sure this is good evidence that sexuality is innate because . . .

When I think about food preference, I can't imagine changing. I'm not gonna try escargo or locusts.

Many men will temporarily do homosexual acts in prison. I don't know the rates, but it is enough to make me believe that part of the 1-7 on the Kinsey scale is suspect and perhaps more analogous to food preferences. I suspect that while I could never imagine myself liking the fellows, it may be partly cultural because it was always seen as disguisting even before I liked girls (no, I never liked guys, animals, or anything else in that way). Similarly, I learned that snails and insects were disguisting before I even tried them. Now I cannot imagine eating them.

All that said, I think there is a huge inborn component to sexual preference. I can't imagine many gays choosing that lifestyle given how much many suffer because of it.

On the other hand even though I was raised in a culture that loves mayonnaise, I can't stand it.

Now, I wouldn't blame gays for being gay any more than I think I should be blamed for hating mayo. I just wonder if in fact it can be influenced to some degree and also whether people may be somewhat malleable as children (perhaps a strick 1 could be influenced to be a 2 on the Kinsay scale by society at the appropriate age).

asbestosman wrote:
Now, I wouldn't blame gays for being gay any more than I think I should be blamed for hating mayo. I just wonder if in fact it can be influenced to some degree and also whether people may be somewhat malleable as children (perhaps a strick 1 could be influenced to be a 2 on the Kinsay scale by society at the appropriate age).

I imagine you were fed mayo as a kid, yet something about it did not set right with you. However, you can still be a faithful member of the Oddfellows, with or without mayo, as long as you maintain a lifelong committment to not eating.

We are genetically programmed by millions of years of evolution with a drive to find someone capable of mating and copulating with them. I'm attracted to females because our species evolved that way, not because of any choice on my part.

I don't know whether homosexuality is founded on genes, or hormones in the womb, or whatever combination of any or all such things. I do believe, however, that a typical human being would have a hell of a time overcoming the evolutionary momentum to copulate with the opposite gender merely by choosing to do so. Something about that decision is supported by the hardware of their bodies, or it would be very difficult.

This leads me to another little peeve of mine. We always hear this ridiculous accusation that the gays are trying to recruit new people into gayness by inserting the occasional gay character into a movie, or having a character in a movie or TV show stand up for a gay person or whatever. Our culture is simply steeped to overflowing with heterosexual references. You can hardly watch a show, listen to a song, read a magazine, etc. without some depiction of heterosexual love, lust, or even full-on heterosexual intercourse. So the real question is this: given all of the attention heterosexual urges and practices get in our popular culture, and yet the gays exposed to all of this remain gay, what makes people think that the occasional gay character in a movie is going to turn straight people gay?

Sethbag wrote:We are genetically programmed by millions of years of evolution with a drive to find someone capable of mating and copulating with them. I'm attracted to females because our species evolved that way, not because of any choice on my part.

Oh, no doubt, but that doesn't explain our revulsion to out own gender. I really do wonder if part of that isn't cultural just as it is with escargo and locusts.

Also, it is my understanding that gay men aren't really grossed out by the thought of heterosexual sex the way we are about homosexual sex. They just don't get turned on any more than we get turned on by watching two animals going at it.

I don't know, really. :)

Yet, it doesn't make sense that someone would choose to practice sexual activity that is discouraged in the wider culture, is seen as disgusting, and they are ridiculed and marginalized because of it.

I used to have female acquaintances that fooled about some with sexuality and I just wasn't attracted to a female the way I am to a man. It just is not interesting to me, and I don't even enjoy watching two females. It bores me. I definitely didn't choose to not be attracted to them or cultural conditioning come into it 'cause from about 15 on up (Rocky Horror, some profession) I always saw women enjoying their sexuality with each other -- just doesn't interest me, in the least.

I remember being sooo bummed out when I met this GORGEOUS guy at a club and we were sooo into each other. He was witty, sharp, told me how lovely I was -- Swooooooon --- found out a few weeks later he still found me lovely just he wasn't attracted to females. Bummer. :(

Also, it is my understanding that gay men aren't really grossed out by the thought of heterosexual sex the way we are about homosexual sex. They just don't get turned on any more than we get turned on by watching two animals going at it.

I think you're mistaken. I have had gay friends that expressed disgust at the idea of hetero sex.

I think that Kinsey was pretty correct in his general idea, although stats and specific may be suspect. I think some people are born "strictly homosexual" or "strictly heterosexual", and it is just not possible for them to feel genuine sexual attraction to the "other" sex (other than the one that attracts them).

Then there are obviously bisexual people, who were always attracted to both sexes.

I think the gray area is those in-between, those not clearly hetero, homo, or bi, generally predisposed one way, but open to having other experiences. I think they're likely more influenced by environment, but I also think that "open" tendency is natural and inborn.

All I know is, I never "chose" to be attracted to only males. And I have gay friends who never "chose" to be attracted to the same sex. The logical conclusion, to me, is the basic dial is inborn, and with some people, the setting may vary a bit according to environment.

I don't understand the fixation on this particular issue, anyway. Who cares if people "choose" it, if it's a behavior that harms no one and brings satisfaction to their own lives in some way? Of course religionists are going to come up with some strained argument about how it "harms" others, but we all know their real beef is that god doesn't like it.

beastie wrote:

Also, it is my understanding that gay men aren't really grossed out by the thought of heterosexual sex the way we are about homosexual sex. They just don't get turned on any more than we get turned on by watching two animals going at it.

I think you're mistaken. I have had gay friends that expressed disgust at the idea of hetero sex.

Then perhaps my gay friend isn't completely gay. However so far as I understand it, he cannot imagine being with a woman even though it doesn't disguist him. He said that for him the whole disguist thing was more of a joke--whether to lighten our conversations or to get me to think differently, I do not know.

All I know is, I never "chose" to be attracted to only males. And I have gay friends who never "chose" to be attracted to the same sex. The logical conclusion, to me, is the basic dial is inborn, and with some people, the setting may vary a bit according to environment.

No doubt my gay friend didn't choose to be gay and his environment should have had him be hetero. I just wonder how much of my disguist to homosexual sex (not attraction to heterosexual women) is cultural.

I don't understand the fixation on this particular issue, anyway.

I don't believe I'm fixated on it. I hadn't thought about it much until just recently. It will probably pass quickly too. Sometimes I wonder about other things like identical twins, chimeras, and hermaphrodites. However, I think knowing about my sexuality is more directly applicable to me. I do wonder why I find homosexual sex disguisting just as I wonder why I hate mayo. It doesn't particularly bother me whatever the answer may be. I'm not worried about whether or not more people will be gay. I'm just curious about myself. Why am I what I am? As long as gays don't harass me (none have) I don't care what they do. Of course, the same goes for heterosexuals too (some of them have harassed me back in Jr. High--it sucks being a nerd).

beastie wrote:

Also, it is my understanding that gay men aren't really grossed out by the thought of heterosexual sex the way we are about homosexual sex. They just don't get turned on any more than we get turned on by watching two animals going at it.

I think you're mistaken. I have had gay friends that expressed disgust at the idea of hetero sex.

I have too, Beastie. I think the scale you talked about is right on. Most of my female friends show indifference or slight interest in lesbian sex, yet, I have met a few women that thought the idea was revolting.

I think often times men are less inclined to talk about homosexual sex and put themselves on that scale because of how they will be viewed.

I don't believe I'm fixated on it. I hadn't thought about it much until just recently. It will probably pass quickly too. Sometimes I wonder about other things like identical twins, chimeras, and hermaphrodites. However, I think knowing about my sexuality is more directly applicable to me. I do wonder why I find homosexual sex disguisting just as I wonder why I hate mayo. It doesn't particularly bother me whatever the answer may be. I'm not worried about whether or not more people will be gay. I'm just curious about myself. Why am I what I am? As long as gays don't harass me (none have) I don't care what they do. Of course, the same goes for heterosexuals too (some of them have harassed me back in Jr. High--it sucks being a nerd).

I didn't mean to imply you were fixated on it, abman. I meant the larger culture seems fixated on the question of nature or nurture.

Robert Wright had an interesting theory, although it was pretty loose, about some of this. Statistics seem to show that bisexuals have earlier sexual experiences and reproduce earlier than those who are strictly gay or hetero. They also end up with more partners. This means that, in the final count, they have an evolutionary edge in terms of reproduction. (particularly because they reproduce EARLIER). So bisexuals are a real threat to hetero reproduction access. Maybe the disgust and urge to condemn comes from the threat that bisexuality provides, and it just "leaks" over to homosexual behavior (since that's how we would detect bisexuality, too).

I'm really not sure. I've never been disgusted by the idea of male or female homosexual acts, even when I disapproved of it as a believer. But I wasn't raised in a thoroughly conservative religious home, either. My parents just didn't talk about it at all when I was growing up. I learned later in life that my father is actually a bit homophobic, due to the fact that a coach tried to seduce him as a teenager.

beastie wrote:

Also, it is my understanding that gay men aren't really grossed out by the thought of heterosexual sex the way we are about homosexual sex. They just don't get turned on any more than we get turned on by watching two animals going at it.

I think you're mistaken. I have had gay friends that expressed disgust at the idea of hetero sex.

Hello Beastie,

Then why is it now that about every heterosexual man who doesn't enjoy watching two bearded men french kissing each other is now considered a 'homophobe' by the far left ultra liberals? Please See this Post For Example: http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... ht=#156837