DiscussMormonism.com

Posted: **Sun May 25, 2008 6:27 am**

... Mormons being Christian and Jesus being God's son?

I will add more later, just want to know what people here have been taught what Mormons believe to be regarding these two areas.

Pirate.

Posted: **Sun May 25, 2008 6:41 am**

Imwashingmypirate wrote:... Mormons being Christian and Jesus being God's son?

I will add more later, just want to know what people here have been taught what Mormons believe to be regarding these two areas.

Pirate.

1. If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the restored Gospel as taught by Jesus Christ and his apostles, containing a restoration of all the power, doctrines, and ordinances lost during the Great Apostasy, and if it is the divinely authorized Kingdom of God on earth with the authority to administer in all of the ordinances and blessings of the Gospel, then it must be "Christian", as its author, head, and central figure is Jesus Christ.

2. Jesus Christ was the firstborn of God the Father in the spirit world and became a God, indeed, a God nearer to the Father in power, glory, intelligence, and knowledge, than any of the Father's other children in the preexistent world. He was the frist born of the Father in the Spirit world and the only begotton Son of God in the flesh. He was God the Son in the premortal world, and the second member of the Godhead, or Grand Council of Heaven, which organized and created this earth and which administers the Gospel and the plan of salvation to God's children on earth and in eternity. Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind, and is, in direct relationship with us, the God of the universe of which we are a part.

He was the God of the Old Testament, known by various names, and came to this earth to take on a mortal body. He worked out the great Atonement for all mankind and was then crucified and resurrected, receiving then all power on earth and in Heaven.

Posted: **Sun May 25, 2008 6:56 am**

Unbelievable. Shock Horror!!!

Posted: **Sun May 25, 2008 2:37 pm**

Droopy wrote:1. If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the restored Gospel as taught by Jesus Christ and his apostles, containing a restoration of all the power, doctrines, and ordinances lost during the Great Apostasy, and if it is the divinely authorized Kingdom of God on earth with the authority to administer in all of the ordinances and blessings of the Gospel, then it must be "Christian", as its author, head, and central figure is Jesus Christ.

There has never been a Great Apostacy, simply because the priesthood, such as it is, has always been present, if one believes LDS mythology. (thinking 3 Nephites here). And there has never been a time when there were no Christians, since Christ's crucifixtion.

2. Jesus Christ was the firstborn of God the Father in the spirit world and became a God, indeed, a God nearer to the Father in power, glory, intelligence, and knowledge, than any of the Father's other children in the preexistent world. He was the frist born of the Father in the Spirit world and the only begotton Son of God in the flesh. He was God the Son in the premortal world, and the second member of the Godhead, or Grand Council of Heaven, which organized and created this earth and which administers the Gospel and the plan of salvation to God's children on earth and in eternity. Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind, and is, in direct relationship with us, the God of the universe of which we are a part.

He was the God of the Old Testament, known by various names, and came to this earth to take on a mortal body. He worked out the great Atonement for all mankind and was then crucified and resurrected, receiving then all power on earth and in Heaven.

So Jesus didn't need a body in order to be God? Yet we do? And yet God is no respector of persons?

Posted: **Sun May 25, 2008 2:53 pm**

The points that Coggins bring up are all principles I was always taught growing up LDS.

Some of the contradictions that Harmony brings to the discussion are also things I have wondered about.

Can anyone point me in the direction of a scriptural or doctrinal reference which stipulates that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament?

Thanks!

:)

Posted: **Sun May 25, 2008 3:42 pm**

liz3564 wrote:Can anyone point me in the direction of a scriptural or doctrinal reference which stipulates that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament?

Here you go, Liz.

He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New.

Posted: **Sun May 25, 2008 3:54 pm**

Imwashingmypirate wrote:... Mormons being Christian . . .

There isn't a simple answer to what official "doctrine" is regarding Latter-day Saints being Christian, pirate. The early leaders of the LDS Church were openly hostile to "Christians" and "Christianity," and set themselves up in opposition to it. It's only been in more recent years they have tried to be included in the broader concept of "Christian."

I think it really has to do with two different interpretations of the meaning of the word "Christian."

Of course, as Coggins/Droopy notes below, if LDS believe in and worship Jesus Christ, it seems like a no-brainer that they would be "Christian." There's the sense that "Christian" also means "someone who would follow the teachings of Christ" (be compassionate, kind to fellow men, etc.).

Clearly LDS leadership would prefer to distinguish themselves from the greater Christian community in the sense that they see it as apostate, however. And since they feel a sense of "ownership" over the term "Mormon," and to whom it can or cannot be logically or realistically applied, they need to understand that two thousand years of Christianity has yielded, if nothing else, a sense of a guarding of its own gates, and deciding who or what is or is not truly a part of the Christian community, and can rightly be called "Christian."

You can find plenty of early quotations from LDS leaders critical of, if not openly hostile to, Christians, and Christianity.

Are Mormons Christians? Yes. Are they Christian? Debatable.

How does the LDS leadership regard this? Depends on if you are talking about the leaders in the early church (1800's) or now.

. . .and Jesus being God's son?

Coggins/Droopy explained this from an LDS perspective pretty well. Mormons believe not only that Jesus is the "son of God" in the broadest of senses (figuratively, by adoption, and so on), but also literally, in terms of "God" being the literal biological father of Jesus Christ. Traditional Christians also believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and believe this literally, but don't get down to biological musings regarding it ("begotten" takes a slightly different turn in Mormonism than it does in the rest of Christianity). Christians generally acknowledge that the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit played a role in the Incarnation, but not in the sense that Mormons imagine it.

Posted: **Sun May 25, 2008 5:12 pm**

There has never been a Great Apostacy, simply because the priesthood, such as it is, has always been present, if one believes LDS mythology. (thinking 3 Nephites here). And there has never been a time when there were no Christians, since Christ's crucifixtion.

Hmmmm. Some more fundamental LDS doctrines for Harmony to make her Bishop aware of during the next TR interview when, I just know, she'll come clean and be fully open, honest, and clear regarding the fact that she accepts almost nothing of what the Church actually teaches doctrinally.

1. What we term the "great apostasy" is so well attested by the historical record regarding the post apostolic history of Christianity it would be purely academic even responding to Harmony on this point unless an entire thread was going to be devoted to it. Harmony's reasoning used is rather humorous, as it again shows that her grasp of LDS doctrine is as tenuous as it is convoluted. Indeed, were it not for the personal testimony of someone else here, this would be another point at which I'd be very tempted to question Harmony's status as a Mormon at all, given the Three Nephite argument against the Apostasy above.

She clearly has no idea whatsoever how much this kind of gaff makes here appear to be a anti-Mormon poseur pretending to be a disaffected member on a message board.

This second statement was apparently intended to cue the canned laugh track:

And there has never been a time when there were no Christians, since Christ's crucifixtion.

Yes, no kidding. The system that remained were altered, corrupted, and diluted forms of Christianity, but they were still forms. The restored Gospel is about the presence of the true, authorized Kingdom of God being upon the earth, not who is or is not a "Christian". One can be a Christian while still outside the divinely instituted Kingdom. No Christian, however, can ultimately be exalted and receive a fullness of blessings, knowledge, and salvation outside that Kingdom.

I said:

2. Jesus Christ was the firstborn of God the Father in the spirit world and became a God, indeed, a God nearer to the Father in power, glory, intelligence, and knowledge, than any of the Father's other children in the preexistent world. He was the frist born of the Father in the Spirit world and the only begotton Son of God in the flesh. He was God the Son in the premortal world, and the second member of the Godhead, or Grand Council of Heaven, which organized and created this earth and which administers the Gospel and the plan of salvation to God's children on earth and in eternity. Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind, and is, in direct relationship with us, the God of the universe of which we are a part.

He was the God of the Old Testament, known by various names, and came to this earth to take on a mortal body. He worked out the great Atonement for all mankind and was then crucified and resurrected, receiving then all power on earth and in Heaven.

Harmony, struggling to comprehend simple Gospel teachings she should have absorbed as a toddler, responds:

So Jesus didn't need a body in order to be God? Yet we do? And yet God is no respector of persons?

No. Nor apparently did Adam and other personages in the preexistent world who attained very high levels of knowledge, power, and authority in that realm such that they could be understood to have attained god like status. No one, however, can attain a fullness without undergoing a mortal probation or, at the very least, obtaining a body (if only for a few minutes, hours, days, months, or years) such that the eternal spirit can be united permanently with a glorified, resurrected body, without which, no fullness of joy and personal development is possible.

"God" is a relative as well as absolute term in LDS theology. There are beings so far advanced beyond others that they, effectively, become as gods to beings of a lesser order. Then there is, of course, exaltation, or a fullness of godhood, which is absolute as to its transcendence of all lower states of being.

This will mostly be lost on Harmony, as her prime directive seems to be, to the greatest extent possible, to do all in her power not to understand the substantive structure of LDS doctrine, but so be it.

Posted: **Sun May 25, 2008 5:31 pm**

Coggins/Droopy explained this from an LDS perspective pretty well. Mormons believe not only that Jesus is the "son of God" in the broadest of senses (figuratively, by adoption, and so on), but also literally, in terms of "God" being the literal biological father of Jesus Christ. Traditional Christians also believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and believe this literally, but don't get down to biological musings regarding it ("begotten" takes a slightly different turn in Mormonism than it does in the rest of Christianity). Christians generally acknowledge that the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit played a role in the Incarnation, but not in the sense that Mormons imagine it.

This is fairly convoluted and requires some more clarification. LDS believe Jesus Christ to be the first begotten Son of God in Spirit, and a literal Son of God the Father. Christians actually, beyond the obtuse, simplified statements of the creeds, have no idea what they believe Jesus Christ to be, in any ontological sense. The great Christological controversies of the third and fourth centuries are of little help, as the tightly wound philosophical arguments regarding his ontological status, based as they were in the Alexandrian Platonism of the time, give us little guidance or intellectual clarity.

What hana means by the statement that "traditional" (historic, post apostolic Christianity grounded substantially in the theological currents of the post Nicene Fathers), accepts Jesus' sonship literally, while Mormons apparently do not, is anyone's guess.

As to the role of the Holy Ghost in the Incarnation, traditional Christianity has nothing to say. The only thing they have is the vague reference to some "role" in the Synoptics, but no doctrinal clarification or substantive understanding.

Posted: **Sun May 25, 2008 5:33 pm**

Droopy wrote:
There has never been a Great Apostacy, simply because the priesthood, such as it is, has always been present, if one believes LDS mythology. (thinking 3 Nephites here). And there has never been a time when there were no Christians, since Christ's crucifixtion.

Hmmmm. Some more fundamental LDS doctrines for Harmony to make her Bishop aware of during the next TR interview when, I just know, she'll come clean and be fully open, honest, and clear regarding the fact that she accepts almost nothing of what the Church actually teaches doctrinally.

Or you will, since you've made some pretty impressive gaffes of your own recently.

1. What we term the "great apostasy" is so well attested by the historical record regarding the post apostolic history of Christianity it would be purely academic even responding to Harmony on this point unless an entire thread was going to be devoted to it.

"Great" does not equate with "total." One could point to the historical record post-Joseph Smith and argue for "apostasy," even "great apostasy" in Mormonism, but it wouldn't necessarily equate with total, either.

Harmony's reasoning used is rather humorous, as it again shows that her grasp of LDS doctrine is as tenuous as it is convoluted. Indeed, were it not for the personal testimony of someone else here, this would be another point at which I'd be very tempted to question Harmony's status as a Mormon at all, given the Three Nephite argument against the Apostasy above.

We're still wondering about you since the "Jesus wasn't always God" gaffe.

She clearly has no idea whatsoever how much this kind of gaff makes here appear to be a anti-Mormon poseur pretending to be a disaffected member on a message board.

See above.

This second statement was apparently intended to cue the canned laugh track:

And there has never been a time when there were no Christians, since Christ's crucifixtion.

Yes, no kidding. The system that remained were altered, corrupted, and diluted forms of Christianity, but they were still forms. The restored Gospel is about the presence of the true, authorized Kingdom of God being upon the earth, not who is or is not a "Christian". One can be a Christian while still outside the divinely instituted Kingdom.

Not according to Christ. And by that definition, most "Christians" would find Mormonism safely outside.

No Christian, however, can ultimately be exalted and receive a fullness of blessings, knowledge, and salvation outside that Kingdom.

Outside it? Or without it?

I said:

2. Jesus Christ was the firstborn of God the Father in the spirit world and became a God, indeed, a God nearer to the Father in power, glory, intelligence, and knowledge, than any of the Father's other children in the preexistent world. He was the frist born of the Father in the Spirit world and the only begotton Son of God in the flesh. He was God the Son in the premortal world, and the second member of the Godhead, or Grand Council of Heaven, which organized and created this earth and which administers the Gospel and the plan of salvation to God's children on earth and in eternity. Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind, and is, in direct relationship with us, the God of the universe of which we are a part.

He was the God of the Old Testament, known by various names, and came to this earth to take on a mortal body. He worked out the great Atonement for all mankind and was then crucified and resurrected, receiving then all power on earth and in Heaven.

Harmony, struggling to comprehend simple Gospel teachings she should have absorbed as a toddler, responds:

So Jesus didn't need a body in order to be God? Yet we do? And yet God is no respector of persons?

No. Nor apparently did Adam and other personages in the preexistent world who attained very high levels of knowledge, power, and authority in that realm such that they could be understood to have attained god like status. No one, however, can attain a fullness without undergoing a mortal probation or, at the very least, obtaining a body (if only for a few minutes, hours, days, months, or years) such that the eternal spirit can be united permanently with a glorified, resurrected body, without which, no fullness of joy and personal development is possible.

I await your treatise on how the Holy Ghost fits into this equation.

"God" is a relative as well as absolute term in LDS theology. There are beings so far advanced beyond others that they, effectively, become as gods to beings of a lesser order. Then there is, of course, exaltation, or a fullness of godhood, which is absolute as to its transcendence of all lower states of being.

This will mostly be lost on Harmony, as her prime directive seems to be, to the greatest extent possible, to do all in her power not to understand the substantive structure of LDS doctrine, but so be it.

I don't know that we teach that.

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