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Whenever the topic of the raid on the FLDS compound is discussed at MA&D, I read almost nothing but condemnation of the Texas authorities who carried it out. Why it was wrong, the damage it'll do to FLDS children, how and why the FLDS church members' rights were supposedly violated, and the list goes on and on.

Nowhere do I see them acknowledge that the girls are all groomed to become the "wives" of some old guy perhaps four times their age once they hit twelve or thirteen years old or so, with the statutory rape that goes along with it. Or how the boys, if they are the favorite of one of the leaders, are groomed to become abusers themselves or, if they aren't a favorite of one of the leaders, are fated to be kicked out onto the streets with no education, no contacts, and no support system.

Heck, it even came out that many of the boys, too, were apparently victims of sexual assault. It was also shown that the kids had abnormally high incidences of broken bones, consistent with a pattern of physical abuse.

But what do the vast majority of the threads, posts, and participants at MA&D choose to focus on? That's right, the horrible, awful Texas law enforcement and DCFS officials who broke into the ranch of a perfectly harmless religious group with impeccable family values who would never dream of harming anyone, much less a child. It's thoroughly disgusting.

Here we have the corporate LDS church taking great pains to distance itself from the FLDS church in every possible way, yet, on the other hand, we have the MA&Dites acting like the FLDSers are their intellectual and religious blood brothers. Acting as though a criticism of the FLDS church is a criticism of the LDS church as well. All for one and one for all. It's like they have some sort of passionate love affair going on.

So, to all the MA&Dites reading this, I ask you: Which is it? Is the FLDS church an apostate sect of Mormonism, or isn't it? Are they completely unrelated to your own church, or aren't they? Do you disagree with their marital practices, or don't you? Do you agree with the Texas authorities that the abuse needed to stop, or don't you?

Is it not a natural extension for them to to furnish apologetics for the FLDS as well?

Child Brides and Castoff Boys are allowable when you are defending The Principle.

moksha wrote:Is it not a natural extension for them to to furnish apologetics for the FLDS as well?

MA&D may think so, but apparently none of them got the memo that the corporate LDS church doesn't.

I think they realize that to do otherwise would open a pandora's box. Their apologia regarding LDS past polygamy often rests on the fact that the women involved had testimonies of "the principle" and chose to get involved due to that testimony. Critics are accused of disrespecting the wills of these dead women when they insinuate or state that the women were manipulated and/or used.

So if believers admit that FLDS women are manipulated and used, despite the fervent testimonies of the FLDS women, then they'd have to discard their own favorite apologia. That option is unacceptable to them. So they are, in essence, choosing what seems to them to be the lesser of their two evil choices.

The leaders of the LDS church are not in this position because they do not engage in apologetic defenses of polygamy to begin with. They just ignore it and hope everyone will forget about it one day.

Hi Shades,

Like you, I find many of the comments on MAD disgusting and unfathomable.

It seems the only people who don't think the fLDS children needed help and rescue are fLDS and LDS sympathizers

It is as if to admit the FLDS abusive, secretive, and lying nature forces them to come to terms with LDS history, the degradation of polygamy, the sexual use of girls and young women by Joseph Smith (and other leaders), and the abusive practices of the early church.

Easier to deny there is a problem, and pretend those that want to help the FLDS children are the bad guys.

As in the early days of the LDS church, this community is very good at deception. They have had over a century of practice circumventing the law as they continue to engage in illegal and abusive practices.

For example, did anyone read some of the testimony of the new mother and father trying to gain custody of their newborn baby?

Over and over, in response to questions, they "couldn't remember at this time, " or, " didn't know."

Who lives in your home? "I don't remember at this time."

Is your sister married to Warren Jeffs? "I don't know"

On and on...

I really wish there was a way to help the children, deprogram the adults, and keep families together in a healthy and happy home.

Unfortunately, short of a monogamous family removing themselves from the group, getting some serious counseling, supervision, and parenting help, I do not know how it is possible. We are left trying to find the best of some very sorrowful alternatives.

in my opinion, allowing girls to be sexually abused by older serial rapists, and boys to be abandoned and neglected by their parents is NOT the best alternative.

~dancer~

truth dancer wrote:Hi Shades,

Like you, I find many of the comments on MAD disgusting and unfathomable.

It seems the only people who don't think the fLDS children needed help and rescue are fLDS and LDS sympathizers

It is as if to admit the FLDS abusive, secretive, and lying nature forces them to come to terms with LDS history, the degradation of polygamy, the sexual use of girls and young women by Joseph Smith (and other leaders), and the abusive practices of the early church.

Easier to deny there is a problem, and pretend those that want to help the FLDS children are the bad guys.

As in the early days of the LDS church, this community is very good at deception. They have had over a century of practice circumventing the law as they continue to engage in illegal and abusive practices.

For example, did anyone read some of the testimony of the new mother and father trying to gain custody of their newborn baby?

Over and over, in response to questions, they "couldn't remember at this time, " or, " didn't know."

Who lives in your home? "I don't remember at this time."

Is your sister married to Warren Jeffs? "I don't know"

On and on...

I really wish there was a way to help the children, deprogram the adults, and keep families together in a healthy and happy home.

Unfortunately, short of a monogamous family removing themselves from the group, getting some serious counseling, supervision, and parenting help, I do not know how it is possible. We are left trying to find the best of some very sorrowful alternatives.

in my opinion, allowing girls to be sexually abused by older serial rapists, and boys to be abandoned and neglected by their parents is NOT the best alternative.

~dancer~

I don't know about criticizing them for answering "I don't know"...they are being very careful because what they say can be used against them and against their loved ones and family members. Yes, they do practice deception--after all, polygamy is illegal and can bring a lot of trouble on them if others find out they are practicing it, but let's remember that plenty of people would not be forthcoming on a witness stand if they knew the information was damaging.

moksha wrote:Is it not a natural extension for them to to furnish apologetics for the FLDS as well?

Child Brides and Castoff Boys are allowable when you are defending The Principle.

Moksha, I think you are closer to the truth in your statement. I do believe that some on the MADB board see criticism of the FLDS as criticism of LDS. I'm not sure exactly why, because they need to see that the FLDS are a separate entity and we aren't responsible for all the trouble they are in now. Their ancestors made choices 80 years ago that set up their descendants to be manipulated and controlled by a psychotic leader. They are reaping the consequences of following Warren Jeffs, even though it was clear to many that Jeffs was not a Prophet and he was changing long held beliefs and practices of their church.

I have been disturbed myself at how much the board members have sympathized with the FLDS--and refusing to see any of the problems with the sect--to the point that all they are interested in discussing is the unconstitutionality of the raid and ignore all else. There's a lot of bashing of the govt. and paranoia....we saw this on the political threads as well and I think it shows some of the sympathies of the posters. Many just don't like the Govt., I think.

Oftentimes on those FLDS threads, I feel like I am the lone dissenting voice...every so often another poster will contribute, but they often get slapped down by the mods or the posters just ignore everything they say by insisting there is no evidence and it's all a witch hunt because of rumors and religious persecution.

So, to all the MA&Dites reading this, I ask you: Which is it? Is the FLDS church an apostate sect of Mormonism, or isn't it?

It is.

Are they completely unrelated to your own church, or aren't they?

They are unrelated. How is that confusing to you?

Do you disagree with their marital practices, or don't you?

Unauthorized plural marriage is an abomination. But homosexual acts are also an abomination. However, I have always believed that, for the most part, people ought to be allowed to practice their beliefs without interference or sanction by government no matter what I think about them.

Do you agree with the Texas authorities that the abuse needed to stop, or don't you?

What was their basis for action? They should have stopped immediately when it was known who Rozita Swinton was and what she was doing. Their basis for action therefore seems to be rooted in revulsion for someone else's beliefs and rumors about the practice of those beliefs rather than probable cause.

I don't see any desire to stop abuse on the part of Texas authorities.

Hi A.I.,

I don't know about criticizing them for answering "I don't know"...they are being very careful because what they say can be used against them and against their loved ones and family members. Yes, they do practice deception--after all, polygamy is illegal and can bring a lot of trouble on them if others find out they are practicing it, but let's remember that plenty of people would not be forthcoming on a witness stand if they knew the information was damaging.

The point I was trying to make is that this group is not exactly forthcoming with information. They lie, deceive, and alter truth as they see fit.

OF course they are lying or "forgetting" so they won't get the older men in trouble, this seems to be a common practice. But, how in the WORLD is CPS or law enforcement supposed to keep families together when they can't get the plain and simple truth? If no one knows which children belong to what parents, if grown mentally alert adults can't say to whom their family members are married, if family members can't even say who lives in their homes, and if everyone is giving a different made-up story, how can CPS possibly decide which specific children are in danger?

I am confident that if the FLDS folks were honest this whole situation would not exist as it has. CPS workers would not have had to take all the children but could have worked on an individual basis with children and parents. As it is, unfortunately, I don't know that they had much of a choice.

~dancer~

They are unrelated. How is that confusing to you?

Oh come now.

How much MORE related can these groups be?

They may not be one and the same but related? ABSOLUTELY!

Same father, which makes them siblings. ;-)

Same founder, same scriptures, (with an exception or two) same beliefs, same history for the first eighty or so years... the FLDS believe the LDS church is the apostate, the LDS church believes it is the FLDS.

Yes these two groups are related.

~dancer~