hear no evil. see no evil...

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_beastie
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hear no evil. see no evil...

Post by _beastie »

On the thread about the TV special on polygamy, cinepro noted this:

That was great when the interviewer produced the "Bishop's Records" showing the 16 year-old wives, but the Jessop guy wouldn't even look at it. It's like "Dude, they're your own records!" I can't believe Texas CPS screwed this up so badly, but something needs to be done about that community.


I was also struck by that. He refused to look at it. It was bizarre, and yet it is the same behavior I’ve seen demonstrated online by defenders of the faith.

It reminds me of Eric Hoffer’s astute observation about True Believers:

So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard.” (Luther) To rely on the evidence of the senses and of reason is heresy and treason. It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible. What we know as blind faith is sustained by innumerable unbeliefs. The fanatical Japanese in Brazil refused to believe for four years the evidence of Japan’s defeat. The fanatical communist refuses to believe any unfavorable report or evidence about Russia, nor will he be disillusioned by seeing with his own eyes that the cruel misery inside the Soviet promise land.

It is the true believers ability to “shut his eyes and stop his ears” to facts that do not deserve to be either seen or heard which is the source of his unequaled fortitude and constancy. He cannot be frightened by danger nor disheartened by obstacles nor baffled by contradictions because he denies their existence. Strength of faith, as Bergson pointed out, manifests itself not in moving mountains but in not seeing mountains to move. And it is the certitude of his infallible doctrine that renders the true believer impervious to the uncertainties, surprises and the unpleasant realities of the world around him.


One of the more frustrating aspects of online exchanges between believer and nonbeliever has to do with this very phenomenon – the ability of the True Believer to “shut his/her eyes and stop his/her ears”. After having interacted with defenders of the faith on a couple of different boards over the span of several years, I noticed this repeatedly: solid, reliable information would be presented that directly contradicted or undermined a particular defense of some aspect of the faith. Certain believers would act incapable of allowing that information to register in any meaningful way, no matter how simple the information actually was. Here’s my favorite example that involves the lack of evidence for the horse in ancient Mesoamerica:

When discussing not only the lack of archaeological and artistic evidence of the horse, but also the lack of sociological evidence of the impact the horse has on evolving cultures, several defenders of the faith would respond that the geography of Mesoamerica was not conducive to the use of the horse, hence, the lack of impact. Over and over, I saw this assertion directly and simply refuted (mainly, Mesoamerica is so geographically diverse that, while some mountainous regions would not be conducive to the horse, there were other areas that were flatter and would be conducive to the horse). At one point I even offered a statement by John Sorenson that directly refuted this (he mentioned a particular plain contained in the Book of Mormon region that he thought was particularly conducive to the horse in battle). Yet, time after time, I would see the same apologist (in this particular conversation, it was cdowis), trot out the exact same argument months later. It was like he had done just what this Jessop person did – refuse to even LOOK at the information. Certainly it did not register in any meaningful way. This was one of the repeating phenomenon that eventually made me generally give up on these sort of discussions – it was usually a complete and utter waste of time. “Jessop” wouldn’t even LOOK at what you were offering.

I think it is a remarkable demonstration of Hoffer’s assertion. And he's correct - it is an absolute waste of time to try to reason with people who have already decided to "see no evil".




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We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Beastie,

Yeah, that interview was pretty powerful.

The thing is, it seems like this inability to take in conflicting information is so deep, almost beyond the conscious control of the individual or something.

As if the brain itself can't allow it to contemplate the conflicting information or something.

I remember reading a couple of studies that concluded that the more belief is threatened, the more people attach to the familiar, so I wonder if this phenomenon is some sort of subconscious protective mechanism?



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"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Moniker
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Re: hear no evil. see no evil...

Post by _Moniker »

beastie wrote:
One of the more frustrating aspects of online exchanges between believer and nonbeliever has to do with this very phenomenon – the ability of the True Believer to “shut his/her eyes and stop his/her ears”. After having interacted with defenders of the faith on a couple of different boards over the span of several years, I noticed this repeatedly: solid, reliable information would be presented that directly contradicted or undermined a particular defense of some aspect of the faith. Certain believers would act incapable of allowing that information to register in any meaningful way, no matter how simple the information actually was.


I've only been watching these boards for a year now, yet, I'm often struck by the same threads that happen again and again. The same points of view are debated and sometimes you see a wavering or a chink in the armor -- then a few months later it's back to the same ole same ole. It's sort of odd to witness it.

I was talking about the age of the earth with someone a few months back and no matter what evidence they were shown they could somehow twist this about to make it work for them and keep the Bible as literal. I was stunned and eventually just gave up.
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Post by _bcspace »

That was great when the interviewer produced the "Bishop's Records" showing the 16 year-old wives


Was this below the minimum age for the state? Where these marriages submitted for recognition by the state? Just curious.
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Was this below the minimum age for the state? Where these marriages submitted for recognition by the state? Just curious.


In Texas, 16 year olds can marry with parental consent. I do not know whether or not the marriages were submitted for recognition by the state. I doubt it, unless they were first marriages.

Regardless of the legalities, obviously this was information that Jessop wasn't even willing to LOOK AT for some reason. That's what I find interesting.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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