DiscussMormonism.com

There's an article in today's Deseret News; see here;

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700230649,00.html

CPS and the FLDS parents had negotiated a deal for returning the children and then the judge refused to sign it. She wanted to make changes and the parents would not agree to those changes...so she walked off the bench Friday afternoon and left everyone sitting there.

I think she knows full well that if she allows the parents to get their children back, even though part of the deal was that they remain in Texas, they won't. Without the DNA results in yet, the authorities don't know who to target. But the victims and perpetrators do. They are completely aware of which of them will be caught in the DNA net. So, If they are one of those who'll be prosecuted, they will take their kids and disappear. Then, even though the state will have a criminal case, they'll have no one to prosecute.

I'm not sure what she can do to stop it though. With the court ordering the return of the children and the criminal charges not yet filed--her hands are tied. The only way to ensure they don't leave would be for texas authorities to surround the compound until the criminal charges are filed....and that would bring back some unfortunate images of Waco, I'm afraid.

Just exactly WHO is the State supposed to return the children TO? Their parents?

Who are their parents?

I don't know if this is possible/plausible but...could the Judge be trying to dragging her feet until the paternity tests are in?

from msnbc search on FLDS:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24887140/

"All the children living at the ranch were placed in state custody in early April after CPS said the sect was forcing underage girls into marriage and sex and endangering all the children, including infants and boys.

An appellate court ruled last week that CPS failed to show an immediate danger to justify taking the children from their parents, saying the state failed to show any more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused and offered no evidence of sexual or physical abuse of the other children."


what happened happens all the time in Children's Court where one little thing - even a word in a contract prevents things from being signed and this was a friday. If this was a monday then it could be all done. Some of the things that the judge could have added was unannounced visits by CPS at any hours, parenting classes, no corporal punishment. There was one issue that said the children could not be taken out of the state. She could have ordered the children not to be taken fifty miles from the FLDS community site. It will likely be finished monday or tuesday and the kids will be back home. I think the community knows that the eyes of the world are on them and it may be an end to polygamy for them like it was for the Salt Lake Church in the early 1900's.

Just exactly WHO is the State supposed to return the children TO? Their parents?

Who are their parents?

Hey Jersey Girl... it is actually even more complicated than this.

Even monogamous couples with young children are living in the same house/dorm with older men who have raped young girls. Now we all know this, (we have the Bishop's record, young girls with babies, photos, records etc. etc.), but so far there is no DNA proof and the girls won't talk so it is only an allegation.

Still, would any decent person in the world allow children of any age to be returned to a home with a known rapist of young girls? Of course not. Registered sexual predators (after jail time) typically have requirements to stay away from children to protect children. I can't imagine any decent person thinking it is a good idea to allow young children to live in a home with a rapist of children.

Further, the homes/dorms are not just filled with "known" rapists but with mothers who will not protect their daughters from rape, basically accomplices, and other adults who basically facilitate the rape (aiding and abetting?). Can anyone tell me how this is a safe place for children of any age? Even if the children are not the biological offspring of the rapist?

While I absolutely understand the issue of addressing each individual family, it is just not so simple.

Now, if they get the DNA information and can arrest the alleged rapists, (and their accomplices ?), and if CPS can figure out who lives in what home/dorm, and which children belong to which parents, then, and only then can there be any "individual" plan.

It is just not so easy when CPS is dealing with people who lie and deceive and won't disclose basic information.

I REALLY hope the DNA evidence gets returned quickly so plans can be worked out prior to the children all being returned to that sexually abusive compound.

~dancer~

EXCELLENT POST, Truth Dancer.

Now, if any MA&Dites are reading this, I really, really would like you to tackle Truth Dancer's post, above. Can you continue to passionately defend the FLDS church after reading her post? If so, how?

I'm genuinely curious.

truth dancer wrote:

Just exactly WHO is the State supposed to return the children TO? Their parents?

Who are their parents?

Hey Jersey Girl... it is actually even more complicated than this.

Even monogamous couples with young children are living in the same house/dorm with older men who have raped young girls. Now we all know this, (we have the Bishop's record, young girls with babies, photos, records etc. etc.), but so far there is no DNA proof and the girls won't talk so it is only an allegation.

Still, would any decent person in the world allow children of any age to be returned to a home with a known rapist of young girls? Of course not. Registered sexual predators (after jail time) typically have requirements to stay away from children to protect children. I can't imagine any decent person thinking it is a good idea to allow young children to live in a home with a rapist of children.

Further, the homes/dorms are not just filled with "known" rapists but with mothers who will not protect their daughters from rape, basically accomplices, and other adults who basically facilitate the rape (aiding and abetting?). Can anyone tell me how this is a safe place for children of any age? Even if the children are not the biological offspring of the rapist?

While I absolutely understand the issue of addressing each individual family, it is just not so simple.

Now, if they get the DNA information and can arrest the alleged rapists, (and their accomplices ?), and if CPS can figure out who lives in what home/dorm, and which children belong to which parents, then, and only then can there be any "individual" plan.

It is just not so easy when CPS is dealing with people who lie and deceive and won't disclose basic information.

I REALLY hope the DNA evidence gets returned quickly so plans can be worked out prior to the children all being returned to that sexually abusive compound.

~dancer~

Hey: TD - I don't think that if any of the above were possible that the appellate court or supreme court would have interfered with what was going on - DNA tests can be done very quickly and I'm sure there are people that are cooperating as that is the quickest way to get the kids back home. As to the five where they have evidence of sexual abuse those kids are not going anywhere and I'm sure that criminal investigations are going on in those cases too.

Silly me for thinking that the Texas Supreme court might know what it's talking about. They obviously don't care about the safety of the children.

I think she knows full well that if she allows the parents to get their children back, even though part of the deal was that they remain in Texas, they won't.

They shouldn't have to agree to anything. The Texas Supreme Court ruled that the taking of the children was unlawful in the first place. The only way to be fair about it is for cps to go back to square one even after tipping their hand.

bcspace wrote:

I think she knows full well that if she allows the parents to get their children back, even though part of the deal was that they remain in Texas, they won't.

They shouldn't have to agree to anything. The Texas Supreme Court ruled that the taking of the children was unlawful in the first place. The only way to be fair about it is for cps to go back to square one even after tipping their hand.

C'mon, BCSpace, do you for one moment think the FLDS in Texas are going to be "fair" about anything they do? These people have years of experience Lying for the Lord, cheating on welfare in Utah and Arizona, raping the local school district, raping the little girls, and raping the tax payers in Arizona of tens of millions of dollars.

I want the deck stacked heavily against the FLDS. I want the guilty men arrested and sentenced to jail for their belief system which includes beliefs which cause them to violate the law. I want the mothers who knowingly permitted their little daughters to be raped by Jeffs and his brothers (literally) and the other high ranking FLDS leaders arrested and sentenced to jail for their belief system which includes beliefs which cause them to violate the law.

I want TBMS to stop their love affair with the FLDS. There's not one redeeming feature about the FLDS in Texas. They are to the FLDS what Nazi Mormons are to the LDS Church. They deserve everything that happens to them. I know there are moderate FLDS elsewhere and that even FLDS children in Texas are innocent, but the adults in Texas are -- to a man or plural wife -- just despicable.

As for your concern for the FLDS's civil rights, did you object when your Church publically fought against the Equal Rights Amendment for women? Did you object when your Church preached against civil rights for blacks prior to Pres. Kimball's reversal of the priesthood ban? Are you now objecting to your Church's attacks on the civil rights of gays and lesbians? If not, then the only minority group whose civil rights you're worried about are those of the FLDS.

James Clifford Miller