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More Jaredite delights

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:17 pm
by _Chap
Here below is an account that we are meant to take literally, since it was after all recorded by an eye-witness, Ether, who was the only survivor of all the Jaredites apart from Coriantumr.

Please note what is going on. An entire population of people, men, women and children all dress up in armor, take weapons, and fight one another until they are, every one of them (except for the leader on one side and a bystander) dead.

This is of course utterly unlike any event in the history of warfare, modern or premodern.

Nobody runs away from the battlefield, hides, and survives. Even all the children fight to the death. The winners, exhausted after days of fighting, have the energy to pursue and hunt down everyone on the other side and kill them all.
Nobody takes prisoners - utterly unlike other real ancient battles, in which the capture of slaves is an essential contribution to the prosperity of ancient economies.

The only explanation? Satan was at work ...

This is not remotely like actual warfare as known amongst real human beings (whom Satan has presumably not deprived of his provocative attentions in favor of the Jaredites alone). It is not even like a good piece of fiction about fighting. It's just bad, bad fantasy writing. It never happened.

13 And it came to pass that Ether did behold all the doings of the people; and he beheld that the people who were for Coriantumr were gathered together to the army of Coriantumr; and the people who were for Shiz were gathered together to the army of Shiz.
14 Wherefore, they were for the space of four years gathering together the people, that they might get all who were upon the face of the land, and that they might receive all the strength which it was possible that they could receive.
15 And it came to pass that when they were all gathered together, every one to the army which he would, with their wives and their children—both men, women and children being armed with weapons of war, having shields, and breastplates, and head-plates, and being clothed after the manner of war—they did march forth one against another to battle; and they fought all that day, and conquered not.
16 And it came to pass that when it was night they were weary, and retired to their camps; and after they had retired to their camps they took up a howling and a lamentation for the loss of the slain of their people; and so great were their cries, their howlings and lamentations, that they did rend the air exceedingly.
17 And it came to pass that on the morrow they did go again to battle, and great and terrible was that day; nevertheless, they conquered not, and when the night came again they did rend the air with their cries, and their howlings, and their mournings, for the loss of the slain of their people.
18 And it came to pass that Coriantumr wrote again an epistle unto Shiz, desiring that he would not come again to battle, but that he would take the kingdom, and spare the lives of the people.
19 But behold, the Spirit of the Lord had ceased striving with them, and Satan had full power over the hearts of the people; for they were given up unto the hardness of their hearts, and the blindness of their minds that they might be destroyed; wherefore they went again to battle.
20 And it came to pass that they fought all that day, and when the night came they slept upon their swords.
21 And on the morrow they fought even until the night came.
22 And when the night came they were drunken with anger, even as a man who is drunken with wine; and they slept again upon their swords.
23 And on the morrow they fought again; and when the night came they had all fallen by the sword save it were fifty and two of the people of Coriantumr, and sixty and nine of the people of Shiz.
24 And it came to pass that they slept upon their swords that night, and on the morrow they fought again, and they contended in their might with their swords and with their shields, all that day.
25 And when the night came there were thirty and two of the people of Shiz, and twenty and seven of the people of Coriantumr.
26 And it came to pass that they ate and slept, and prepared for death on the morrow. And they were large and mighty men as to the strength of men.
27 And it came to pass that they fought for the space of three hours, and they fainted with the loss of blood.
28 And it came to pass that when the men of Coriantumr had received sufficient strength that they could walk, they were about to flee for their lives; but behold, Shiz arose, and also his men, and he swore in his wrath that he would slay Coriantumr or he would perish by the sword.
29 Wherefore, he did pursue them, and on the morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again with the sword. And it came to pass that when they had all fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with the loss of blood.
30 And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz.
31 And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.
32 And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the earth, and became as if he had no life.
33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his brecord; (and the hundredth part I have not written) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.
34 Now the last words which are written by Ether are these: Whether the Lord will that I be translated, or that I suffer the will of the Lord in the flesh, it mattereth not, if it so be that I am saved in the kingdom of God. Amen.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:20 pm
by _truth dancer
What about Joshua? He and his army slaughtered even the children, babies, and animals.

Oh wait, they did keep the virgins for themselves to do with them as they please.

Nevermind. :-(

~dancer~

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:25 pm
by _bcspace
It was certainly their goal to gather every last person, but were they actually able to accomplish it? It doesn't say. I don't think they did and I don't think they expected to either. Where is the problem?

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:29 pm
by _The Nehor
I think Ether was only keeping track of the armies themselves. Undoubtedly people fled in groups before the madness and some probably refused to heed the summons to follow either Shiz or Corinatumr. Also, how would an eyewitness be able to keep track of who fled, who didn't, groups miles away hiding from the war, etc. It would be LESS authentic if he had accurate details.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:37 pm
by _Canucklehead
bcspace wrote:It was certainly their goal to gather every last person, but were they actually able to accomplish it? It doesn't say. I don't think they did and I don't think they expected to either. Where is the problem?


Actually, it does say that they did. In fact, they didn't begin the battle until they were all gathered.

"And it came to pass that when they were all gathered together, every one to the army which he would, with their wives and their children..."

Note the word "all". Note also the words "every one". Note also the phrase "with their wives and their children".

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:44 pm
by _BishopRic
The Nehor wrote:I think Ether was only keeping track of the armies themselves. Undoubtedly people fled in groups before the madness and some probably refused to heed the summons to follow either Shiz or Corinatumr. Also, how would an eyewitness be able to keep track of who fled, who didn't, groups miles away hiding from the war, etc. It would be LESS authentic if he had accurate details.


Here's my problem with so many of these types of mental gymnastics. Everything from the Wentworth letter to these very apparent contradictions in the Book of Mormon, if you step back and think about the alleged "purpose" of the scriptures -- to inspire the readers to accept/embrace the "gospel" therein, wouldn't you think that God would make sure that the prophets get it right? After all, if what the prophets say/write is often incorrect, isn't it logical that a thinking person would wonder what to believe and not believe? Seems like a strange way to help a person gain a "testimony" of anything!

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:47 pm
by _TrashcanMan79
The Nehor wrote:It would be LESS authentic if he had accurate details.


There you have it folks. Inaccuracy is evidence of the Book of Mormon's authenticity.

Incredible.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:50 pm
by _bcspace
It was certainly their goal to gather every last person, but were they actually able to accomplish it? It doesn't say. I don't think they did and I don't think they expected to either. Where is the problem?

Actually, it does say that they did. In fact, they didn't begin the battle until they were all gathered.

"And it came to pass that when they were all gathered together, every one to the army which he would, with their wives and their children..."


Notice the use of the word "might" in vs 14. Notice also the use of "would" in the verse you quoted which implies they were also free to choose not to join any army. Otherwise, they would've been pressganged into whatever group found them first.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:57 pm
by _BishopRic
bcspace wrote:
It was certainly their goal to gather every last person, but were they actually able to accomplish it? It doesn't say. I don't think they did and I don't think they expected to either. Where is the problem?

Actually, it does say that they did. In fact, they didn't begin the battle until they were all gathered.

"And it came to pass that when they were all gathered together, every one to the army which he would, with their wives and their children..."


Notice the use of the word "might" in vs 14. Notice also the use of "would" in the verse you quoted which implies they were also free to choose not to join any army. Otherwise, they would've been pressganged into whatever group found them first.


There you go, God allowing trickery of words so we will learn by faith, not logic.

Alrighty then.

Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:07 pm
by _William Schryver
The Nehor wrote:I think Ether was only keeping track of the armies themselves. Undoubtedly people fled in groups before the madness and some probably refused to heed the summons to follow either Shiz or Corinatumr. Also, how would an eyewitness be able to keep track of who fled, who didn't, groups miles away hiding from the war, etc. It would be LESS authentic if he had accurate details.

Don't even bother with common sense, Nehor. These people are such motivated extremists that NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING -- no argument, however logical -- will serve to persuade them away from their preset conclusions.

For what it's worth, I entirely concur with your observation that the story would be LESS authentic if it met the expectations of these modern, extremist readers. I'm certain there were hundreds of thousands of survivors of the Jaredite "annihilation." And even if Ether was aware of that fact, it is entirely to be expected that he would not report it. As it stands now, it not only rings authentically ancient, but authentically MORE ancient than the Nephite story.

The whole Book of Ether is an anomalous "something else" in the middle of the Book of Mormon. It has long been my most-often-read part of the Book of Mormon. I think it's fabulous (in the literal sense of that word: "resembling or suggesting a fable") -- and also essentially true -- at the same time. In my judgment, the inclusion of the Book of Ether is one of the internal evidences of the antiquity of the Book of Mormon.