Anyone Else Following the Rape/Homosexual/Filthy Lost Virtue

[_Moniker]

You raise some good points.

Exactly where should the line be drawn as to when a girl should start taking responsibility for it? If she kisses a guy, and he rapes her, I don't see her as having any blame what-so-ever.

But, I don't know...there is just something in the back of my mind that says if a girl is going to act like she wants to have sex, and is leading the guy on like she is going to have sex with him, then doesn't...there is SOME responsibility on her part. A stripper isn't leading a guy on. There is a line and he should know where it is. The girl in my scenario has drawn no lines. The guy THINKS he is getting sex, and then she suddenly imposes a line.

So what if he thinks he is or may get sex? That's up to her.

I just still can't see that she is absolved of any and all responsibility in this case. She HAS to know that if you go this far, there is at least a minimum chance that the guy won't be able to stop, right?

I'm not certain I know what you mean? Why wouldn't a man be able to stop? Are you seriously suggesting that the man loses all ability to stop in some instances? He may CHOOSE not to stop, yet, he always can stop. This is really somehow or another making the female responsible for his actions, Scottie. I give men more credit than this. Matter of fact I think this sort of thinking (not saying you do this personally -- just generally) goes back to LDS teachings with women wear certain clothes, women are temptresses and men are just predatory in nature. I don't think in those terms, at all and it seems odd, to me, to think of men as brutes that are incapable of resisting the charms of a female in a miniskirt or in the nude.

I mean, seriously, if you were to go that far with a guy wouldn't it cross your mind at least once that you'd better tell him that you're not going to go all the way with him before getting to a certain point?

I don't really want to answer that... I just know that when people are in relationships, first time fooling about and stuff that a woman can perhaps feel hesitant, change her mind, WHATEVER and the man can stop whatever he's doing. Hell, let me ask you something Scottie (since we're asking personal questions) -- you are HOT and steamed.... you are enjoying yourself. Your partner (wife, whatever) tells you to do THIS 'cause it feels good, or she sort of wiggles about and tells you that does NOT feel good -- at ANY point can you just not listen to her instructions? Even DURING sex? Women tell men ALL THE TIME what to do in bed and men DO IT! Right? Seriously? Why is THIS any different? Oooh, don't touch me there, that doesn't feel good -- YES -- do THAT some more, etc.... THINK ABOUT IT!

There are a lot of girls who love to "tease". They pride themselves on this. And I believe they know damned well the dangers of teasing a guy. So, you tell me. If a girl goes into a bedroom with a guy, with full intent on teasing him to his breaking point, then making him stop but he doesn't, is she absolved from all responsibility?

I think there are women they pride themselves on being a certain way with men, yet, could he then attack her and beat the crap out of her? I mean, what's the difference? Is he pissed off at this point? This is sort of disturbing, to me.....

[_truth dancer]

Hi A.I.,

Sometimes it is frustrating as a non-believer when some members think various teachings were never taught because they have not heard them

I know of believers who do not believe the temple ceremony was altered, who don't believe there was a time when women couldn't pray in Sac. Mtg, who don't believe the church taught that the Native Americans are descendants of Lehi & Co. ;-)

The thing is, because you may not have heard a teaching doesn't mean it wasn't taught.

This teaching we are discussing was indeed taught, believed, and embraced by leaders of the LDS church. Because they have backed away from it, or softened it, or because you have not personally heard it taught doesn't mean it didn't exist.

The point is, those believers on MAD believe as they do because they heard it from LDS church leaders. As I said, they may be older than you, and hold to earlier teachings, nevertheless, the belief obviously still exists.

I think most of us realize again, this teaching is not as pronounced, or is softened, still it is not absent from the minds of believers, evidenced by some folks on MAD.

~dancer~

[_Moniker]

Scottie, my friend, I have to correct you here before Moniker reads this and beats you to death :)

Heh! I'm in a good mood this evening. No verbal spazzes tonight! :)

I don't think a girl is required to disclaim whether or not she plans to have sex with the guy before a certain point in time. Shoot, I've been there ready to go, and changed my mind. I dated a really good Mormon girl who would "tease" me mercilessy. For weeks. But I never crossed the line with her. Eventually we had sex, but it was when she was ready.

Yah. Glad you said it 'cause I didn't want to say it. I mean, I'm sure most of us have gotten right to that point and stopped, right? I don't see this as being outside the norm, really?

[_Scottie]

I mean, seriously, if you were to go that far with a guy wouldn't it cross your mind at least once that you'd better tell him that you're not going to go all the way with him before getting to a certain point?

There are a lot of girls who love to "tease". They pride themselves on this. And I believe they know damned well the dangers of teasing a guy. So, you tell me. If a girl goes into a bedroom with a guy, with full intent on teasing him to his breaking point, then making him stop but he doesn't, is she absolved from all responsibility?

Scottie, my friend, I have to correct you here before Moniker reads this and beats you to death :)

I don't think a girl is required to disclaim whether or not she plans to have sex with the guy before a certain point in time. Shoot, I've been there ready to go, and changed my mind. I dated a really good Mormon girl who would "tease" me mercilessy. For weeks. But I never crossed the line with her. Eventually we had sex, but it was when she was ready.

Don't get me wrong here...I'm not saying that it is not a rape. It is!

The question was asked if there was ever a time when a girl should share some of the burden in a rape situation. I, personally, believe that a girl that teases a guy like this does share at least a small portion of the blame. She HAS to know what she is getting herself into.

Again, I'm not condoning the rape AT ALL. I want to make that point clear.

[_Bardman]

The question was asked if there was ever a time when a girl should share some of the burden in a rape situation. I, personally, believe that a girl that teases a guy like this does share at least a small portion of the blame. She HAS to know what she is getting herself into.

No. Let's look at it backwards. Is there ever a time when a girl is obligated to complete the sexual act because she's crossed the guy's line? Is there a time when it's no longer okay for a girl to change her mind?

[_beastie]

I don't think anyone is ever obligated to complete the sexual act, or to engage in specific acts during sex. For one partner to force the other to do so is seriously abusive.

[Guest]

You raise some good points.

Exactly where should the line be drawn as to when a girl should start taking responsibility for it? If she kisses a guy, and he rapes her, I don't see her as having any blame what-so-ever.

But, I don't know...there is just something in the back of my mind that says if a girl is going to act like she wants to have sex, and is leading the guy on like she is going to have sex with him, then doesn't...there is SOME responsibility on her part. A stripper isn't leading a guy on. There is a line and he should know where it is. The girl in my scenario has drawn no lines. The guy THINKS he is getting sex, and then she suddenly imposes a line.

So what if he thinks he is or may get sex? That's up to her.

Absolutely. However, does she share a micro....something of the blame?

I just still can't see that she is absolved of any and all responsibility in this case. She HAS to know that if you go this far, there is at least a minimum chance that the guy won't be able to stop, right?

I'm not certain I know what you mean? Why wouldn't a man be able to stop? Are you seriously suggesting that the man loses all ability to stop in some instances? He may CHOOSE not to stop, yet, he always can stop. This is really somehow or another making the female responsible for his actions, Scottie. I give men more credit than this. Matter of fact I think this sort of thinking (not saying you do this personally -- just generally) goes back to LDS teachings with women wear certain clothes, women are temptresses and men are just predatory in nature. I don't think in those terms, at all and it seems odd, to me, to think of men as brutes that are incapable of resisting the charms of a female in a miniskirt or in the nude.

A man looking at a nude woman vs a girl doing all kinds of unspeakable acts to a guy and then expecting him to show immense levels of self control are two entirely different worlds.

I mean, seriously, if you were to go that far with a guy wouldn't it cross your mind at least once that you'd better tell him that you're not going to go all the way with him before getting to a certain point?

I don't really want to answer that... I just know that when people are in relationships, first time fooling about and stuff that a woman can perhaps feel hesitant, change her mind, WHATEVER and the man can stop whatever he's doing. Hell, let me ask you something Scottie (since we're asking personal questions) -- you are HOT and steamed.... you are enjoying yourself. Your partner (wife, whatever) tells you to do THIS 'cause it feels good, or she sort of wiggles about and tells you that does NOT feel good -- at ANY point can you just not listen to her instructions? Even DURING sex? Women tell men ALL THE TIME what to do in bed and men DO IT! Right? Seriously? Why is THIS any different? Oooh, don't touch me there, that doesn't feel good -- YES -- do THAT some more, etc.... THINK ABOUT IT!

Of course any decent man will stop when told to stop. I've had to stop several times when it was really, REALLY difficult to do so.

Ok, lets add one more layer of complexity here. Say our hypothetical girl is attracted to the "bad boys". She is at a party, drinking and finds mr bad boy. Tattoo's, piercings, just got out of prison, etc. She takes him into the back room and starts to fool around with him. Teasing him, getting naked, performing all kinds of unspeakable acts. After things reach a certain point, she says no. He does it anyways. Is this girl absolved from all responsibility?

There are a lot of girls who love to "tease". They pride themselves on this. And I believe they know damned well the dangers of teasing a guy. So, you tell me. If a girl goes into a bedroom with a guy, with full intent on teasing him to his breaking point, then making him stop but he doesn't, is she absolved from all responsibility?

I think there are women they pride themselves on being a certain way with men, yet, could he then attack her and beat the crap out of her? I mean, what's the difference? Is he pissed off at this point? This is sort of disturbing, to me.....

Ok, so you think that a woman that pushes and pushes and pushes and pushes a man until he finally snaps and hits her is completely innocent of any wrongdoing????? Are you kidding me??? My God, are women accountable for ANYTHING in your world???

[_Moniker]

Don't get me wrong here...I'm not saying that it is not a rape. It is!

The question was asked if there was ever a time when a girl should share some of the burden in a rape situation. I, personally, believe that a girl that teases a guy like this does share at least a small portion of the blame. She HAS to know what she is getting herself into.

Again, I'm not condoning the rape AT ALL. I want to make that point clear.

What is she getting herself into? I personally understand that men CAN control themselves. I understand that a woman can tell a man to stop something and he should and most DO! If one does not do it then he is responsible for his actions -- the woman does not share the blame for HIS actions.

Is she responsible for the man that acts decent and like a gentleman? Or is the female only responsible for the man that supposedly can't stop?

[Guest]

How can a rape victim or abuse victim have a "degree of responsibility"? Serious question. I'm wondering if someone can be considered a rape victim and also share in that responsibility? Wouldn't consent be required to share in the responsibility. At that point, isn't it no longer rape? I wonder if Scott is thinking of date rape, where a girl goes on a date thinking it's all innocent, but the guy thinks she's giving out signs that she wants sex. Maybe the Mormon church thinks that it's the girls responsibility to make sure she isn't giving out signs that the guy can misinterpret. I don't know, suggesting that the rape victim is somehow partly responsible seems old fashioned to me. Middle Eastern cultures have similar attitudes toward rape victims. It's a throw back to more barbaric times.

Ok, this is a tricky situation, so I'll try and be delicate.

I know of instances where a girl will willingfully make out, get naked, fondle, oral sex, etc, and when it gets too hot and heavy, says no, but it has gone too far and the guy just does it anyways.

Now, mind you, I believe that no means no. And the guy should have stopped. This IS rape.

But, does she bear some responsibility in this scenario? I say yes, she does.

Well, of course she deserves to bear responsibility! I mean, what woman would dream of enjoying fondling, oral sex, making out and not expect for a man to rape her if she changes her mind? Phsaw -- she should know that men are incapable of understanding the word "no" and that she should never play with a man's genitalia without him turning into a hormone crazed ape that can't stop.

/snark borderline of being a bitch

Hate to bring this back to Leykis 101, but one of the basics is "No means No."

/recent habit of plugging the Tom Leykis show ad nasuem

I'll take it one step further - I've always believed that even during consenual sex that at any time a person can say stop - for whatever reason - and if the other person does not then it turns into an assault.

[_beastie]

The "teasers" are accountable for engaging in sexual behavior, of course. They are not accountable for being raped.