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I just want to lift this sub topic up and out of one of the FLDS existing threads because it is of strong interest to me and I'd lile to get an accurate read/representation here. If you aren't interested in children's play, you might just want to skip it. Following are some exchanges between James Clifford Miller, truthdancer and myself. My response will be located at the end of the reposts:

James Clifford Miller wrote: First, it's such a tiny community on that compound in Texas, it is simply impossible for any FLDS not to know about the underage abuse. It is ridiculous to pretend that everyone is NOT in on it.

Second, no it is NOT possible that some in Texas teach underage sexual abuse to their children out of love for them. The FLDS Jeffs handpicked for Texas are those who truly believe Jeff's teachings that families no longer exist, and that children do NOT belong to their parents, but to the priesthood under Jeffs. Were you aware that he taught that? Many of the children do not even KNOW who their parents are. Were you aware of that? In fact, Jeffs took children away from their parents in Utah, Arizona, and British Columbia and sent them -- WITHOUT THEIR PARENTS -- to the Texas compound. If you truly loved your child, would you willingly give up that child to the church? What kind of love for your child results in that child not knowing who his or her parents are?

Nahor, I don't think you are very knowledgeable about what goes on in the compound in Texas. As another example, were you aware that the children were not allowed to play? They were either working or praying and never playing. There are no indoor toys or outdoor playthings in the compound. Were you aware of that? I ask how much love for a child can a parent have who won't allow the child to play.

James Clifford Miller

Jersey Girl wrote:James,

Could you come up with a link in reference to children not being allowed to play? I haven't read that any where in any news reports.

James Clifford Miller wrote:I didn't save the articles, but I'll do some research. As I recall, it was in articles by John Dougherty who was an investigative reporter for the Phoenix New Times, now employed by the New York Times. I think this specific article was published in the Arizona Republic. My time is limited, but I'll try to get back to you by Friday.

James Clifford Miller

truthdancer wrote:Jersey Girl,

In answer to your question about children playing...

Did you get a chance to read the document the mom's wrote concerning the children's schedules?

If I recall correctly, it stated that the children can play with a jump rope or a ball.

And yeah, for those of us who are passionate about children's play it makes us CRAZY! ;-)

~dancer~

I'd like to say that I think the above informative statements are both inaccurate. I've seen no reports that FLDS children were play deprived and the only statements I've read regarding a jump rope or ball were observations made of FLDS children at play after the children were removed along with their mothers.

I've read only one children's schedule (not dated) of FLDS children's daily life for ages 2-6. I saw no play deprivation there.

Please keep in mind that the topic of this thread is FLDS children's play. It's not about polygamy so please keep your opposition to polygamy off this thread.

Okay, have at it. I'd like to see some cites for the above assertions.

As another example, were you aware that the children were not allowed to play? They were either working or praying and never playing. There are no indoor toys or outdoor playthings in the compound. Were you aware of that? I ask how much love for a child can a parent have who won't allow the child to play.

I'm curious to know how a visual absence of toys must mean they are only working or praying?

bcspace wrote:

As another example, were you aware that the children were not allowed to play? They were either working or praying and never playing. There are no indoor toys or outdoor playthings in the compound. Were you aware of that? I ask how much love for a child can a parent have who won't allow the child to play.

I'm curious to know how a visual absence of toys must mean they are only working or praying?

Thank you.

They're busy polishing doorknobs IIUC. :o)

Just to back up a portion of the quote attributed to James Clifford Miller, "..... The FLDS Jeffs handpicked for Texas are those who truly believe Jeff's teachings that families no longer exist, and that children do NOT belong to their parents, but to the priesthood under Jeffs. Were you aware that he taught that?...."

In Carolyn Jessop's book, Escape, on p. 8 she states that while escaping, Betty, her daughter went ballistic. The text reads that Betty stated, "You are stealing us! Mother, you are stealing us! Uncle Warren will come and get us." She was hysterical.

Jessop to Betty.... "Betty, I can't steal my own children."

Betty.... "We don't belong to you! We belong to the prophet! You have no right to us."


I have to say that when I first saw pictures on the news of the inside of the FLDS homes/compound, the very first thing that struck me was the sterility and lack of toys in the homes for the children. Really, you didn't see any homemade items that resembled toys.

msnobody wrote:They're busy polishing doorknobs IIUC. :o)

Just to back up a portion of the quote attributed to James Clifford Miller, "..... The FLDS Jeffs handpicked for Texas are those who truly believe Jeff's teachings that families no longer exist, and that children do NOT belong to their parents, but to the priesthood under Jeffs. Were you aware that he taught that?...."

In Carolyn Jessop's book, Escape, on p. 8 she states that while escaping, Betty, her daughter went ballistic. The text reads that Betty stated, "You are stealing us! Mother, you are stealing us! Uncle Warren will come and get us." She was hysterical.

Jessop to Betty.... "Betty, I can't steal my own children."

Betty.... "We don't belong to you! We belong to the prophet! You have no right to us."


I have to say that when I first saw pictures on the news of the inside of the FLDS homes/compound, the very first thing that struck me was the sterility and lack of toys in the homes for the children. Really, you didn't see any homemade items that resembled toys.

What kind of toys?

Jersey Girl wrote:

msnobody wrote:They're busy polishing doorknobs IIUC. :o)

Just to back up a portion of the quote attributed to James Clifford Miller, "..... The FLDS Jeffs handpicked for Texas are those who truly believe Jeff's teachings that families no longer exist, and that children do NOT belong to their parents, but to the priesthood under Jeffs. Were you aware that he taught that?...."

In Carolyn Jessop's book, Escape, on p. 8 she states that while escaping, Betty, her daughter went ballistic. The text reads that Betty stated, "You are stealing us! Mother, you are stealing us! Uncle Warren will come and get us." She was hysterical.

Jessop to Betty.... "Betty, I can't steal my own children."

Betty.... "We don't belong to you! We belong to the prophet! You have no right to us."


I have to say that when I first saw pictures on the news of the inside of the FLDS homes/compound, the very first thing that struck me was the sterility and lack of toys in the homes for the children. Really, you didn't see any homemade items that resembled toys.

What kind of toys?

Anything. I saw beds, a plethora of 8x10 glossies of the prophet often on at least three walls of a room, uncomfortable looking chairs, livingrooms that looked like relief society rooms. I'm not saying no Fisher Price, but even the visual absence of anything resembling homemade toys or the like.

So the lives of FLDS children suck. Is there anything we can do about it except raise our voices to point out the problem?

Hey Jersey Girl...

Well the FLDS are not exactly forthcoming with honest and accurate information so we have only, observation, statements by social workers and others who have worked with the children while they were out, and statements from members who have escaped.

Sort of difficult to document anything that goes on there. :-(

After hearing statements claiming children are not allowed to play, by escapees, as I viewed the virtual tour of the dorms I was looking for any evidence of play… anything at all and I just didn’t see anything. No children’s artwork, no boxes stacked up to make a tower, no blankets to make a tent, no stuffed animals or dolls, no dress-ups, no make believe anything, no evidence at all that children even exist (other than an infant seat or two and a crib).

Of course children can and do find things to play with, and maybe the children are allowed to play with kitchen utensils which is the only thing I saw in the dorms that looked like it could be used as a toy. Maybe they were allowed to draw using pencils or pens but I not see any artwork at all. Nothing.

Now kids play and they don’t need our modern day toys in any regard; for all of human history children find ways to play, nevertheless, typically we see evidence of children’s play. Rocks used as marbles, tree branches used as drum sticks, old fabric used as a doll… I saw none of this. Which of course doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist only that it does seem to support the claims of those who have left the community.

Maybe a better way to state it would be something like: there is no visual evidence of pretend, imaginary, make-believe, creative, play, and the environment seems to support the claim that play is very limited in the compound. With only two exception, no toys are available to children.

Now of course none of this means they don’t play in any way whatsoever, but unless there is much more to what we see, there are certainly some serious restrictions on how children are allowed play.

Some of my observations again while viewing the virtual tour, there was nothing to climb, no swings, slides, scooters, bikes, skateboards, or anything available for proprioceptive or vestibular stimulation.

I didn’t see anything made by a child. No clay, collage, painting, drawing, play dough, poster, or anything that would demonstrate a child’s creativity.

While there was a piano and some children are taught to play, are they allowed to explore all sorts of instruments? Make their own simple instruments? Make up songs? Compose something on their own? According to the mothers, If I recall correctly they are limited to church songs and a few other primary type songs. According to the mothers, children are not allowed to hear pretend or "not real" stories, so I'm guessing many children's songs and lullabies are out.

I believe girls are taught to cook and sew, and boys are taught to do woodworking and farming, all great skills but what seems missing to me is the creative, imaginary, pretend, and make-believe play. There isn't much creativity while sewing when there is only one pattern and plain colored material. Similarly I do not see creative woodworking.

Maybe it exists but based on statements by former members supported by the virtual tour it does seem to me there are some concerns.

Do you have reason to believe there is some evidence of more play at the compound?

I am interested because I believe the lack of creative, imaginative, pretend play may stifle the brain’s ability to explore, wonder, and think outside the box, thereby impact belief, as well as the desire/need to follow a leader.

(My personal belief is that the creative ability of our species, is one of the most spectacular and unique abilities that exists, and the one that has moved us toward exploration, invention, enlightenment, even compassion and language).

I’m interested in hearing your thoughts.

:-)

~dancer~

moksha wrote:So the lives of FLDS children suck. Is there anything we can do about it except raise our voices to point out the problem?

Is there a way to donate my old action figures?

The Nehor wrote:

moksha wrote:So the lives of FLDS children suck. Is there anything we can do about it except raise our voices to point out the problem?

Is there a way to donate my old action figures?

Heres our chance dude! Trade them in for a wife or two!