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I thought Beastie once made a very good point that it's possible the current Church leaders do believe in the supernatural and every other part of the Church's teachings. I think she's right about this, though I may not be stating it in the necessary detail with my simplistic summary. My question is, "What do the current brethren believe and what do you suspect they know to be false?" My second question is, "Who in the Church's past, all the way back to Moses, if you will, knew they were telling a falsehood, and how did they justify it?" I mean, if the supernatural turns out not to really exist as we've been told, somebody along the way had to know they were lying.

Isn't it just as logical for me to ask "When did you start beating your wife?"

bcspace wrote:Isn't it just as logical for me to ask "When did you start beating your wife?"

I suppose, if it turns out that there is a God and everything is just like the prophets have told us, seeing as I've never beaten my wife.

But for those who have concluded that everything will probably not turn out to be just as the prophets have told us, the question of whether it is an honest mistake or purposeful deception remains.

ajax18 wrote:I thought Beastie once made a very good point that it's possible the current Church leaders do believe in the supernatural and every other part of the Church's teachings. I think she's right about this, though I may not be stating it in the necessary detail with my simplistic summary. My question is, "What do the current brethren believe and what do you suspect they know to be false?" My second question is, "Who in the Church's past, all the way back to Moses, if you will, knew they were telling a falsehood, and how did they justify it?" I mean, if the supernatural turns out not to really exist as we've been told, somebody along the way had to know they were lying.

I believe that Joseph Smith knew he was making it up, and that it wasn't literally true, though even he may have talked himself into believing he was on some kind of mission from God. I believe that probably Brigham Young believed it, and probably every other LDS President down to the present day pretty much believes it. Joseph Smith created the memes, and they were taken in and believed by the leadership at the time, and have propogated themselves down to this very day.

That's part of the problem, really - the LDS leadership of today actually believes they are leading the true church of a God who really exists. Sure, they know there's all this unsavory history, which ought to be a serious clue to them that it's not really true, but they're all masters of the internal rationalization and justification, compartmentalization, etc., just like the rest of us were when we still believed.

I mean, right up to three years ago or so I still used the "they may be wrong about such and such, but it's not necessary to my salvation so it doesn't really matter" bit on myself to keep propping up my own faith in the church. Can you imagine Elder Eyring or President Monson saying the same kinds of things to themselves? I can. Totally.

edit: just wanted to add this. If you can't imagine the LDS Church leadership using compartmentalization, rationalization, justification, "it's not necessary to my salvation", etc. on themselves, then just ask yourself this. Does the Pope really believe he's the Vicar of Christ on Earth? Do the ministers, bishops, pastors, etc. of other churches all believe they're really doing God's work in their churches? There may be exceptions, but I believe that probably most of them actually do believe it. How does a Catholic Bishop or Cardinal convince himself that he's really doing God's work in God's true church? Whatever that way is, however he does it, there's a good chance Monson does the same thing.

When did the deception start?

Friday afternoon, 198,000 BC. Mrs. Ugg was just coming out of Grugg's cave, when Mr. Ugg walked by.

moksha wrote:

When did the deception start?

Friday afternoon, 198,000 BC. Mrs. Ugg was just coming out of Grugg's cave, when Mr. Ugg walked by.

LMAO.

You forgot the month, though.

Does anyone know of the top of their head who the last high ranking GAs were to claim supernatural phenomena? I've heard that Lorenzo Snow claimed to have seen God. I could have sworn back around 95-97 Elder Scott was hinting in GCs that he had seen Jesus. I mean it was all with the disclaimer, too sacred to share, but he shared enough to get people thinking this.

I guess it's pretty sad when I find myself reading the Book of Mormon and thinking maybe Sherem or Korihor had a point. And how did those cases end? No proof, no explanation really, just fear, intimidation, and supernatural curses, as a warning to the rest of us not to consider these arguments.

Would I be foolish to say that Joseph Smith was a nicer person than Brigham Young? I know that what I think is dependent on what I get to read, but is that the notion you guys get or do you just see it all as propaganda?

Lastly, we all think so highly of Jesus. At least I do for his unequaled morality laid out in Matt. 5 & 6.. Yet what if it turns out that He was just a master magician. Are we going to say that his deceit was for the greater good? He had to know He was deceiving if none of this is true.

ajax18 wrote:Lastly, we all think so highly of Jesus. At least I do for his unequaled morality laid out in Matt. 5 & 6.. Yet what if it turns out that He was just a master magician. Are we going to say that his deceit was for the greater good? He had to know He was deceiving if none of this is true.

Well, Jesus did not author Matt. 5 & 6. Also, he is most likely a metaphor for the sun, as Christianity likely began as another sun worshipping religion. But he could have been a master magician, I suppose. Do you believe in Magic... wo ho...

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So I would say that the deception began with the ancient governments that spawned these religious movements.

We all know the idea that religion began as a way to explain the unexplainable, to give comfort in a vast and frightening world.

What if it also began as a way for old men and women to retain their worth to the tribe by becoming shamans. Rather than rely on charity as they began to age, they took up the mantle of authority on things beyond human sight. What if it was a way to maintain relevance and keep from being abandoned as they became more of a burden on the younger members?

Anybody?

Bardman wrote:What if it also began as a way for old men and women to retain their worth to the tribe by becoming shamans. Rather than rely on charity as they began to age, they took up the mantle of authority on things beyond human sight. What if it was a way to maintain relevance and keep from being abandoned as they became more of a burden on the younger members?

Anybody?

Most shamanic callings come earlier in life. Not all, but most.