DiscussMormonism.com

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:29 am**

See:

http://www.amazon.com/Massacre-Mountain ... 0195160347

Where you will find this piece, presumably based on a publisher's blurb of some kind. The emphasis is mine.

From Publishers Weekly
On September 11, 1857, more than 120 men, women and children traveling from Arkansas to California were butchered by Mormon militiamen and Paiute Indians at Mountain Meadows in southern Utah. This study of the tragedy, by three LDS historians, utilizes previously unavailable archival documents to answer the question, How could basically good people commit such a terrible atrocity? The authors find responsibility almost everywhere: in the escalating tensions between the federal government and Mormon authorities, in the 19th-century American culture of violence, in the barbarism of the emigrants and in the unchecked hunger for vengeance the Mormon militiamen felt toward Americans who had opposed their faith. John D. Lee, a fanatical militia leader, receives much of the blame, while church president Brigham Young gets a pass. This first volume covers the massacre itself, not the coverup that some historians have alleged was masterminded by the LDS Church; the authors leave the door open for a possible sequel. But the book's evocative portrayal of the moments leading to the massacre and its careful reconstruction of the lives of the victims makes an important contribution. This is an absorbing, if unsettling, read. (Aug.) ""
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved."

So the emigrants got massacred, in part, because they were 'barbaric'?

I'd really just like to concentrate on that bit, rather than on any other issue. What evidence is there of 'barbarism' by the murdered emigrants, where and who does that evidence come from, and what is its value?

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:28 pm**

If you want to find out I think you have to buy the book.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:53 pm**

Since the blurb is out now, since the book is not going to be available for another two months, and since the Mountain Meadows Massacre has been discussed a great deal over recent years, I think it would be interesting and worthwhile to see if anybody can here and now recall any allegations of 'barbarism' (whatever that means - presumably not just misuse of Greek particles) on the part of the emigrants, and state on what grounds those allegations have, up to now, been based.

Those who want to postpone the discussion for a couple of months are of course welcome to leave now and come back later.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:00 pm**

Obviously I haven't read the book either, so it's possible that new, solid evidence is presented. Given how much MMM has been discussed and the evidence analyzed, I am skeptical. I'm certainly not an expert on the subject, but from what I've read, the accounts of "barbarism" were post-hoc constructions designed to justify the murders. The current evidence does not point to any barbarism on the part of the victims, and most were part of larger family units.

If there is no new solid evidence supporting the "barbarism" charge, the authors ought to be ashamed for continuing the long LDS history of maligning the victims.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:00 pm**

Interesting word choice given the tendency in early Utah towards (feigned) gentry, and the East's preoccupation (even prior to the Saints migration) with warning against the woes of "Barbarism." I think it is an irresponsible mistake to vilify the emigrants – in my opinion, even the evidence for the “wildcats” is sparse.

I guess I will just have to wait for the book to see what evidence there is for this “barbarism.” Perhaps they uncovered some new primary documents. I guess it’s conceivable that the alleged “barbarism” was perceived by the hyperactive imaginations of the Utah peeps who were attempting to have a self-perceived refinement in order to perpetuate the ideal that with the “gospel” came gentry.

Dunno. I’m just sick of waiting for the damn book.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:27 pm**

If this book does vilify the victims, it will be a major setback to relations between the LDS church and the descendants.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:29 pm**

Like beastie, I'm sure that any alleged "barbarism" was cooked up after-the-fact in order to assuage guilty consciences over the massacre.

Let's face it: Insulting the Mormons, pretending to be among the crowd that murdered Joseph and Hyrum, etc. right in the Mormons' homeland makes as much sense as travelling to Mecca and loudly proclaiming that Muhammad is a false prophet.

That the emigrants would be equally foolish is just too absurdly silly to be believed.

Doctor Steuss wrote:I’m just sick of waiting for the damn book.

Why? It was written by three LDS historians, so we already know the conclusions it'll reach.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:32 pm**

That the emigrants would be equally foolish is just too absurdly silly to be believed.

Especially when they had women and children with them, and already knew that the Mormons were in a defensive position to begin with.

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:39 pm**

I can’t tell if you are being serious or just pulling my leg…

Dr. Shades wrote:Why?

Because it might be the best to-date analysis of the MMM. At the very least, it will be like most books on the MMM and contribute at least a small additional aspect to the overall picture. Why would I not be tired of waiting for it? Why would anyone with interest in the MMM not be excited about this book?

It was written by three LDS historians, so we already know the conclusions it'll reach.

The right ones?

Posted: **Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:40 pm**

Would love to see Bagley review the book for the NYT..

Apparently the book is supposed to lead up to the 9/11 but does not discuss the actual massacre or cover up. that's part two...
to be released no doubt in the year 2020 ..

DiscussMormonism.com

'Barbarism' of the emigrants murdered at Mountain Meadows?

'Barbarism' of the emigrants murdered at Mountain Meadows?