DiscussMormonism.com

Douglas Marshall wrote:Dear Editor:
'Gay Marriage'
Among my closest friends are several same-gender couples. They have been together an average of over 10 years, they are loving and stable and committed, all are homeowners and taxpaying citizens, some have raised children together. Beyond this close circle are several dozen other couples I know, some quite well.

I absolutely cannot understand how their being allowed to marry, to have the nearly 14,000 legal rights that go with marriage in this country, will harm me and my wife and 4 children in any way.

This is an especially strange position to be held by the Church that was almost destroyed for practicing polygamy - and as a counselor and social historian, I clearly see the oppression that went on around polygamy as the catalyst for the current political activism of the Mormon Church in joining in the oppression of another group of people around the right to marry and form legally recognized families.

I was a memeber of the Mormon Church for almost exactly 20 years. I left for several reasons, some of which were purely personal. But the decision of Church leaders to join the political campaigns of the right-wing also contributed. The Church and bulk of the Members were on the side of Bull Connor in the Civil Rights Movement, and have continued on that path today.

I celebrate the decision in Vermont, and I expect that the Church will have another "Official Declaration" in about the year 2020, and Mormons will suddenly recognize another portion of the Human Race as Human Beings who who love and form families and worship God.

But until that happens, I expect Mormons to be pretty hateful and bigoted, just as many were against black men and women for a hundred years.

Doug Marshall
P.O. Box 2443
Tucker, GA 30085
dougthepooh@juno.com

Doug Marshall wrote:So many Mormon men think that dominating and controlling is the Christ-like way, think that
silencing other voices is the way to win an argument, think that the highest sin is to question
their supposed authority.

Well, after long experience in THAT meat grinder - I have been a member of the Church since
1979, and an elder for a year less than that - I have come to the conclusion that authority
that does not allow itself to be questioned is, by that fact alone, abusive.

Authority that proclaims a position, allowing no discussion is, by that fact alone, abusive.

Authority that tries to silence other opinions through tactics of fear and threats is, by that
fact alone, abusive.

Authority that refuses to recognize the views or real-life experiences of others is, by that
fact alone, abusive.

Authority that protects the image of the institution - especially when the institution or
individual leaders have done wrong - at the expense of the members is, by that fact alone,
abusive.

And now we find that Mr. Pimentel trying to bring that exact paradigm to the internet - a type
of censorship that even the most draconian of government plans could not duplicate. In a civil
or criminal court, you get an attorney and a chance to defend yourself, and are innocent until
proven guilty. But in authoritarian religious organizations, guilt is established by the
position in the organization held by the accuser, and the accused has few options.

Disagree with him, post something he does not like, and he will put a stop to it by calling
YOUR bishop.

What is next, sir? Will you threaten to form a band of e-Danites, to punish those who do not
bow to your domination? Will you report us to the Strengthening the Members committee in the
COB, with evidence to have us excommunicated for posting unauthorized views on the internet?
And what of those gentiles ("non-Mormons," especially in Utah) who dare to question? How ever
will you deal with them?

Experience has taught me that "orthodox" Mormons will hew the "official" line, regardless of
the evidence they are shown - so, as an example, they believe the official position, given on
Larry King Live, that Mormon women are happy and satisfied, and ignore the evidence that
antidepressants are prescribed in Utah at a far higher rate, per capita, than in any other
state.

One can understand that statistic, though, by simply reading this thread - a friendly reminder
on the internet about the possibility of computer viruses on FHC computers lead very quickly to
threats of censure by the local bishop...

- Imagine living in a state where 75% of the population are LDS, and a large percentage of men
(and a smaller percentage of women), view threats and intimidation as the proper way to
interact or deal with other viewpoints..

- Imagine working with Mr. Pimentel, and having him threaten to call your bishop for imagined
violation of workplace rules.

- Imagine Schindler's List, or Saving Private Ryan at the local theater, and being reported to
your bishop for seeing an "R" rated movie.

- Imagine having a conversation, overheard by Mr. Pimentel or his brother or any of thousands
of similar Mormons, where you question a policy, or say something that could be interpreted as
critical of authority, and you are reported to your bishop.

- Imagine living in an environment that not only questions your personal life experiences, but
denies them and humiliates your for saying you saw what you saw, felt what you felt,
experienced what you experienced - and if you stand up and say, "it did happen to me," you are
reported to your bishop to be disciplined...

If you did not imagine this, if you actually lived there, you might very well be on Prozac,
even as the men in authority proclaim that you are happy and satisfied with the way things are.
.
Again, call the local bishop, or the stake president, if you so desire. While both are prone to
their moments of authoritarianism, I will be more than happy to remind them of the boundaries
of their authority.

P.S. I got involved in this discussion, by the way, because it has been my experience that many Mormon
men treat women as semi-intelligent at best, second class citizens who are to know their place
(the kitchen) and stay quite in the Presence of The Priesthood. Women are condescended to and
dismissed, and threatened (as in this discussion) if they dare to disagree.

The tone of your posts reinforces my personal experience and observations, and reinforces my
understanding and appriciation of the reported experience of many, many LDS women (and a fair
number of men) to whom I have listened, actually hearing their experiences and feelings about
treatment at the hands of those in authority within the Mormon Church.

"If feminism is the idea that women are human beings, then I am a feminist," and insofar as
Mormon leaders, and the Mormon Church as an institution, insist on treating women as second
class, I will question. This is a part of a general attitude to question authority I have
developed from reading the Gospels, Hugh Nibley, and the works of Latter-day Saints who are
developing (some consciously, others not) a Mormon Liberation Theology.

Any who wish to futher correspond on this are asked to write me at the addy below. I have
little interest in genealogy, but am active (on the net and in real life) with prejudice
reduction/welcoming diversity activism and ending oppression of all people, especially economic
oppression (which, based on Nibley and the Book of Mormon, seems to be the basis of most if not
all other forms of oppression and unrighteous dominion).

Trevor wrote:
...What happens that leads a number of former apologists to such similar conclusions?

I was a memeber of the Mormon Church for almost exactly 20 years. I left for several reasons, some of which were purely personal. But the decision of Church leaders to join the political campaigns of the right-wing also contributed.

The fact of the matter is that left-wing politics is completely incompatible with LDS doctrine so this is not suprising.

bcspace wrote:

I was a memeber of the Mormon Church for almost exactly 20 years. I left for several reasons, some of which were purely personal. But the decision of Church leaders to join the political campaigns of the right-wing also contributed.

The fact of the matter is that left-wing politics is completely incompatible with LDS doctrine so this is not suprising.

The fact of the matter is that left-wing politics is completely incompatible with LDS doctrine so this is not suprising.

Yeah, like that pesky little thing called "free agency".

One can't have socialism without the removal of agency. Steeping oneself in sin often causes one to lose their agency as well as they become enslaved and can't get out.