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Lately I've been thinking that trying to be nice and see things from the apostate point of view is not a virtue. I seem to be out of tune with the faithful on important issues such as gay marriage. Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point). The more I think about it, the more I think that I've only been making my own life harder when I try. Who am I to think I know better than the prophets do about how the government should be? I'm much younger for one, but more importantly I was not called to give guidance to others. It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.

The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree. While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Thoughts?

asbestosman wrote: It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.

I've seen all the kudos to KTG here. But she still hasn't posted here. "Twinkle, twinkle little star, how I what you [really] are". Obviously not one inclined to MDB. (Yet)

asbestosman wrote: The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree. While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Thoughts? [My emphasis]

Mormonism has virtues I'd latch on to in five seconds. Tolerance for different viewpoints isn't one of them, at least not among the "TBMs" today. Hammer makes me want to puke as much as "Mercury" does (and BC empty-space has to be the greatest TURN OFF for Mormonism I can possibly imagine). I recommend Runtu's blog for some more sober assessments (though you probably already read it).

http://runtu.wordpress.com/

This guy is the most sincere ex-Mormon I know. (Not discovered without trial and error on my part)

More and more, you seem like a wet exmo(think opposite of the "dry Mormon" investigator).

Someone hand him a towel, he is shivering!

My wife was very active for three years after I went completely inactive.

One thing that helped her see the truth was reading the exit stories on the RfM story board.

So, in my opinion, unless you are an egotistical mo'pologetic asshole with a huge self righteous chip on your shoulder, I'd say your association with us so called apostates, can at the very least, knock the testimonkey off your back. There are many closet exmos who continue with the facade to keep the peace at home.

asbestosman wrote:Lately I've been thinking that trying to be nice and see things from the apostate point of view is not a virtue. I seem to be out of tune with the faithful on important issues such as gay marriage. Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point). The more I think about it, the more I think that I've only been making my own life harder when I try. Who am I to think I know better than the prophets do about how the government should be? I'm much younger for one, but more importantly I was not called to give guidance to others. It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.

The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree. While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Thoughts?

I have several thoughts about this Asbestos, but first let me thank you for asking this question. You mention Katherine-the Great. I have admired her for saying what she believes is right, regardless of the party line. I see you as having that quality too. The are a number of people around here that seem to possess those traits. Even as non-believers, can we not see them in Runtu and Blixa? This trait to stick up for the noble and true, despite its popularity or seeming congruence with the faithful or faithless, seems a mark of something genuinely worthwhile. I would hope you could nurture that in yourself and let it make you a better Mormon and human being.

As far as getting you out of touch with the faithful, I would respond to say it would make you a better leader for keeping a clear and open mind. That is clearly needed. As far as your youthfulness, that will change soon enough.

Best to keep the more esoteric internet stuff to yourself and not the family. Most eccentrics know not to share their long studied bird calls or fishing lures at the dinner table.

I think this is probably a real issue for believers to grapple with, and is why many believers have taken the more combative, aggressive stance against exmos, versus the real attempt to understand and communicate.

I don't know what the answer is for you, asbman - but I suspect you don't have the prerequisite degree of arrogance that would enable you to adopt the combative, aggressive stance.

asbestosman wrote:Lately I've been thinking that trying to be nice and see things from the apostate point of view is not a virtue. I seem to be out of tune with the faithful on important issues such as gay marriage. Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point). The more I think about it, the more I think that I've only been making my own life harder when I try. Who am I to think I know better than the prophets do about how the government should be? I'm much younger for one, but more importantly I was not called to give guidance to others. It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.

The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree. While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Thoughts?

Open mindedness will cause you to stray from the faithful of about any "one true religion". It may even cause family problems. OTOH, maybe this is who you are. How does one get rid of skepticism?

Yong Xi wrote:How does one get rid of skepticism?

Find certainty.

asbestosman wrote:Lately I've been thinking that trying to be nice and see things from the apostate point of view is not a virtue.

But is the opposite a virtue?

I seem to be out of tune with the faithful on important issues such as gay marriage.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point).

Being fair IS being righteous.

The more I think about it, the more I think that I've only been making my own life harder when I try.

Of course. Since the dawn of humanity, there's been no surer way of making one's life difficult than by thinking.

Why should you be any different?

Who am I to think I know better than the prophets do about how the government should be?

Who are you to think you know better than Joseph Smith about the rightness of taking a 14 year-old girl to bed?

I'm much younger for one, but more importantly I was not called to give guidance to others.

So? Brigham Young was called to give guidance to others, and he guided the Saints into believing that Adam & God are the same person.

It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.

Is your priority to learn truth, or is your priority to blindly follow?

The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities.

That's correct. As we've seen above, thinking makes one's life difficult. Their priorities are to follow, not to think.

The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree.

That's scary. You're starting to see the wisdom in turning off your brain.

While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Just what are the so-called "negatives" of getting out of touch with the faithful? Approximately 30,000 missionaries worldwide are working full-time to get people out of touch with their own faithful. Are they wrong to do so?

Thoughts?

Yeah. You're considering abdicating your right to think. The moment you consent to that, you've crossed from "member" into "cultist."

Time and time again on these boards, it is said that we should not blindly follow the prophets (although the local leaders teach this unceasingly).

Now you're saying you want to go back to blindly following?

Plus, I don't think it's possible for you. You know too much. You HAVE been open minded, which if I may venture a guess, is just who you are. Your attempts to close your mind will ultimately end up frustrating you.

I think that perhaps you need these boards as a outlet. Showing open-mindedness in the culture of Mormonism is not welcomed.

Also, one last question...what exactly do you think the modern prophets are more knowledgeable than you are about? Just gay marriage? Or are there other aspects?

I don't see any modern leaders saying anything that isn't just common sense. Don't gamble, do drugs or watch porn, love your families, be honest, etc.

asbestosman wrote:Lately I've been thinking that trying to be nice and see things from the apostate point of view is not a virtue. I seem to be out of tune with the faithful on important issues such as gay marriage. Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point). The more I think about it, the more I think that I've only been making my own life harder when I try. Who am I to think I know better than the prophets do about how the government should be? I'm much younger for one, but more importantly I was not called to give guidance to others. It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.

The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree. While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Thoughts?

Every thinking person has a responsibility to look at life issue according to their own best judgment and not simply acquiesce to a large organization.
Looking at the judgement of prophets of prior generations on social issues (we now say they were speaking as men etc.) it becomes clear that it is indeed possible that ABMan's judgement may be superior to that of the the old businessmen who worked there way up the ranks of the Mormon church.

Individual conscience!