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What God Really, Really Cares About

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:52 pm
by _beastie
I check in on RFM now and then for interesting posts, and found this one by deconstructor. I think it’s worth comment:

The Church Declares:

"It is true that the Prophet Joseph Smith was visited by many heavenly messengers who helped inaugurate this final dispensation. Heavenly beings came to Joseph Smith to bestow priesthood keys, to unfold the majesty and glory of future events, and to warn or to admonish the maturing Prophet. Certainly to a remarkable degree the Prophet Joseph Smith received communication from an array of angels who helped prepare him to carry out his foreordained mission."

"The channels of communication are ever open between God and his appointed leaders of his living church."

"Latter-day Saints are blessed through the Prophet Joseph Smith’s great faith and mission that opened the windows of heaven. He was the pre-appointed agent through which communion with the heavens and the earthly ministry of angels were resumed in a grand manner. The mountain of truth built from the Prophet’s translations and revelations speaks for itself, towering above the stark foothills of earthly philosophy. This is amazing in light of young Joseph’s mortal inadequacy. Through faith, his weaknesses became strengths, and he nobly fulfilled his great foreordained mission—because heavenly messengers were his guides."
- LDS Church Publication, Ensign, Oct. 1994, page 62

Among these heavenly messengers, Joseph Smith testified that the Lord kept sending an angel with a sword to command him to secretly marry women. This angelic visitor appeared and threatened Joseph Smith's life on at least a half-dozen occasions.

See:
http://www.i4m.com/think/history/angel_sword.htm

Latter-day Saints should recognize an important message from the Prophet Joseph Smith's experiences with this heavenly messenger.

They demonstrate the Lord's priorities.

What a shame the Lord didn't send an angel with a sword to straighten Smith out on these other occasions:

- No angel tried to stop him ordaining blacks to the priesthood
- No angel corrected him for writing contradictory versions of the First Vision story
- No angel coerced him into not ordering the destruction of the Nauvoo expositor press
- No angel tried to stop him from ordering the Danites to kill Governor Boggs
- No angel corrected him for repeatedly saying that Native Americans are Lamanites.
- No angel warned him to stop having sex with his adopted daughters
- No angel prevented Smith from claiming to know how to translate Egyptian
- No angel came to tell him what happened to the lost 116 pages
- No angel stopped him from committing bank fraud
- No angel stopped him from trying to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon
- No angel told him to take naked touching out of the endowment ceremony (that didn't happen until Jan 2005)
- No angel chastised him from declaring he was greater than Jesus Christ

Nope. Angelic messengers were complete no-shows, except for when Smith supposedly didn't want to seduce other men's wives, and then Voilà, A MIRACLE! The Lord sends His angel to force Smith into secret adultery!


The thread is called: Sex for Joseph Smith - Heavenly Father's Top Priority (based on the angels He sent)

Deconstructor added more material, but this is the part I think is most pertinent.

We’ve been told, by apologists, that God doesn’t just provide answers out of the blue, that we must seek them first. That’s why things like the priesthood ban was “allowed” to be in place for so long. And yet there are some things that God cares very much about – so much so that he will actually send a threatening angel to convey his Very Important Message.

Now, I know that the first instinct of many apologists will be to argue that Joseph Smith didn’t have sex with all his wives. Ok, I agree he didn’t have sex with all his wives. But he certainly had sex with many of his wives.

God really, really, cared that Joseph Smith got lots of wives. God is kind of funny like that. He tends to want his “prophets” or special messengers to have access to lots of females.

Of course, some apologists (particularly ones inclined towards sexual vulgarity, one in particular who shall remain nameless) may actually enjoy this aspect of God. Right on, dude! Bring ‘em on!

(ps, I may not be around for a while to respond, but I'll be back later)

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:10 pm
by _Gadianton
There is no way for the church to get out from under this. People understand money and sex, and they aren't going to be easily persuaded by apologists once they see how those things factored into Joseph Smith's career.

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:58 pm
by _moksha
Okay Beastie, what would you do if you saw an angel with a drawn sword coming toward you?

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:05 pm
by _beastie
Okay Beastie, what would you do if you saw an angel with a drawn sword coming toward you?


Check myself into the hospital for an evaluation.

There is no way for the church to get out from under this. People understand money and sex, and they aren't going to be easily persuaded by apologists once they see how those things factored into Joseph Smith's career.


I think this is part of the reason the whole Joseph Smith polygamy thing tends to be a trigger for reevaluation of faith for many future exmormons. It just stinks, there is no way around it. And there's no denying that if any other religious leader were to make similar claims, Mormons would roll their eyes.

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:20 pm
by _moksha
beastie wrote:I think this is part of the reason the whole Joseph Smith polygamy thing tends to be a trigger for reevaluation of faith for many future exmormons. It just stinks, there is no way around it. And there's no denying that if any other religious leader were to make similar claims, Mormons would roll their eyes.


Yes but... People can be forgiving of human foibles and even lies to cover up the foibles. After all, forgiveness is divine.

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:17 pm
by _Scottie
moksha wrote:
beastie wrote:I think this is part of the reason the whole Joseph Smith polygamy thing tends to be a trigger for reevaluation of faith for many future exmormons. It just stinks, there is no way around it. And there's no denying that if any other religious leader were to make similar claims, Mormons would roll their eyes.


Yes but... People can be forgiving of human foibles and even lies to cover up the foibles. After all, forgiveness is divine.


Sure we can forgive them, but do we have to trust them again?

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:22 pm
by _beastie
Yes but... People can be forgiving of human foibles and even lies to cover up the foibles. After all, forgiveness is divine.


This only works if a believer can make the leap to accepting that polygamy, and all that went with it, was a "human foible". That is quite a leap, and is a threatening leap, because it opens the door to questioning all sorts of other things.

Sure we can forgive them, but do we have to trust them again?


Particularly when they claim, again, to be speaking for God....like they did claimed with polygamy.

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:31 am
by _EAllusion
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