DiscussMormonism.com

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:32 am**

The little Mormon neighbor girl left my house a couple of hours ago--and behind she left her father's old copy of "The Uniform Teaching System for Families." I have no idea why she brought it here. She was playing teacher or something, probably. It's late, so I'll return it in the morning.

I read through the first lesson, and was surprised at how manipulative it seems. Especially Moroni's Promise. Goodness.

Over and over in the lesson, it instructs the missionary to say things like, "As you read it [Joseph Smith pamphlet] sincerely, you will feel it's power and truth." And, "I know you will feel the truth of our message if you make the effort to ponder these things and will seek the Lord in sincere prayer."

Those admonitions, that the investigator will know the truthfulness of Mormonism if they read sincerely, pray sincerely, or make an effort to ponder sincerely, are repeated to the point of annoyance. The investigators are asked to read Moroni 10: 3-5:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Notice all the qualifiers. If an investigator prays and doesn't get a confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, then they are either ungrateful, didn't ponder, didn't ask with a sincere heart, or with real intent, or didn't have enough faith in Christ.

Not much can be done about the ridiculousness of Moroni's Promise. But, I know the missionary lessons have changed. I hope they're not as blatantly rude and manipulative as they used to be.

KA

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:52 am**

Even when I was a TBM, I REALLY struggled with Moroni's promise.

If I were to put the same amount of effort into praying about the flying spaghetti monster, I have no doubt that I would receive a burning in the bosom that he exists.

As I typed that, I realized how manipulative it is to have SOO many ways to get a yes. A clarity of thought, a sweet peace, a burning in the bosom, etc.

Unlike Mormons, I can't say that I KNOW Mormonism is false. But if God wants me to believe, He knows I need MUCH more than these pitiful, subjective, everyday emotions. I don't know what that something is, but if He really knows me better than I know myself, then He should know what I will accept.

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:07 am**

Nephi's faith in Christ serves as a model for all who desire to know the truth of God. He wrote:

"And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come—I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of hold as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men.

For he is the same yesterday, to-day, and forever; and the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him.

For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the dcourse of the Lord is one eternal round.

That is, Nephi had faith in the principle that God constantly manifests himself to those who seek Christ.

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:17 am**

May I be so bold as to propose a test and issue a challenge. It is hoped that all who take this test will have a knowledge of the Holy Bible, because the more people know about the Bible, the greater their appreciation will be of the Book of Mormon.

This test is for saint and sinner alike; it is for Jew and Gentile, for bond and free, for black and white, for all of our Father’s children. We have all been commanded to search the scriptures, to treasure up the Lord’s word, to live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God. (See D&C 84:44.) This, then, is the test:

Let every person make a list of from one hundred to two hundred doctrinal subjects, making a conscious effort to cover the whole field of gospel knowledge. The number of subjects chosen will depend on personal inclination and upon how broad the spectrum will be under each subject.

Then write each subject on a blank piece of paper. Divide the paper into two columns; at the top of one, write “Book of Mormon,” and at the top of the other, “Bible.”

Then start with the first verse and phrase of the Book of Mormon, and continuing verse by verse and thought by thought, put the substance of each verse under its proper heading. Find the same doctrine in the Old and New Testaments, and place it in the parallel columns.

Ponder the truths you learn, and it will not be long before you know that Lehi and Jacob excel Paul in teaching the Atonement; that Alma’s sermons on faith and on being born again surpass anything in the Bible; that Nephi makes a better exposition of the scattering and gathering of Israel than do Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel combined; that Mormon’s words about faith, hope, and charity have a clarity, a breadth, and a power of expression that even Paul did not attain; and so on and so on.

There is another and simpler test that all who seek to know the truth might well take. It calls for us simply to read, ponder, and pray—all in the spirit of faith and with an open mind. To keep ourselves alert to the issues at hand—as we do read, ponder, and pray—we should ask ourselves a thousand times, “Could any man have written this book?”

And it is absolutely guaranteed that sometime between the first and thousandth time this question is asked, every sincere and genuine truth seeker will come to know by the power of the Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true, that it is the mind and will and voice of the Lord to the whole world in our day.

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:20 am**

I'm pretty sure if I looked hard enough and redefined enough words, I could find all the same concepts in The Lord of the Rings.

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:36 am**

And it is absolutely guaranteed that sometime between the first and thousandth time this question is asked, every sincere and genuine truth seeker will come to know by the power of the Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true, that it is the mind and will and voice of the Lord to the whole world in our day.

That's a lie.

KA

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:53 am**

KimberlyAnn wrote:
And it is absolutely guaranteed that sometime between the first and thousandth time this question is asked, every sincere and genuine truth seeker will come to know by the power of the Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true, that it is the mind and will and voice of the Lord to the whole world in our day.

That's a lie.

KA

And if they don't get an answer, it is because they weren't sincere or genuine enough.

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:28 am**

Scottie wrote:
KimberlyAnn wrote:
And it is absolutely guaranteed that sometime between the first and thousandth time this question is asked, every sincere and genuine truth seeker will come to know by the power of the Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true, that it is the mind and will and voice of the Lord to the whole world in our day.

That's a lie.

KA

And if they don't get an answer, it is because they weren't sincere or genuine enough.

Yes, and if they don't get an answer, they think something is wrong with them, or God doesn't care enough about them to answer, or this or that. This is a very deceptive and destructive teaching.

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:35 am**

. . . . . . .R A C I S T

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:38 am**

—as we do read, ponder, and pray—we should ask ourselves a thousand times, “Could any man have written this book?”

One thousand times?

Has anyone of you asked yourselves anything a thousand times? What kind of answer was Bruce R. expecting we recieve the first 999? "YES?"

What can be said of the doctrine of repetition? Two scriptures come to mind:

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen, for they think
that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them, for your Father knoweth what things
ye have need of before ye ask him.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 13:7 - 8)

Now, if God can't stand a broken record, why would we be admonished to inflict this behavior upon ourselves? Besides, don't we know what we're about to ask ourselves too?

($#*&)

Perhaps here is the answer:

53 ..and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that
I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth..

(Book of Mormon | Alma 30:53)

In fairness, Korihor was preaching against the God of the Mormons, but the principle remains the same.

Repeat something enough and you will figure out a way to believe it. Preach the belief and its just a matter of time that it will be reflected by a handfull of those that hear it - confirming your BS (belief system).

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Moroni's Promise

Moroni's Promise

Bruce R. McConkie General Conference Nov. 1983

Re: Bruce R. McConkie General Conference Nov. 1983

Re: Bruce R. McConkie General Conference Nov. 1983

Re: Bruce R. McConkie General Conference Nov. 1983

Re: Bruce R. McConkie General Conference Nov. 1983

Re: Bruce R. - Dead Guy