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Nehor just posted something in the "Gaz wants to slaughter fags like cattle" thread which I think is deserving of its own discussion, hence this thread.

Basically it's a repetition of something I've heard many times in the church, but I don't recall exactly how it's scripturally defended. And, to be honest, it's not internally consistent with other Mormon theology. It, quite simply, makes no sense.

It's the idea that one will experience God's presence in the Celestial Kingdom, but in the Terrestrial Kingdom one will not experience God's presence, but will still be ministered to by Jesus Christ. And in the Telestial Kingdom one will not experience Jesus Christ's presence, but will be ministered to by the Holy Ghost.

This makes absolutely no sense in context with the rest of LDS theology. It assumes that Jesus and the Holy Ghost remain as they are supposed to be now, ie: not married, Celestialized Gods in their own right, pumping out spirit children and ruling over their own universes, as Elohim is supposed to be doing now.

What is the rationale for why a person in the Telestial Kingdom could not experience the presence of either Jesus or Elohim, but could experience the presence of the Holy Ghost, if the Holy Ghost goes onto to a proper exaltation of the type Mormons today look forward to? If Elohim and Jesus cannot, or will not, go down to the Telestial Kingdom to visit his subjects there, why would the exalted and deified Holy Ghost do it?

Likewise, if a person in the Terrestrial Kingdom cannot experience the presence of Elohim, why would the Celestialized, married, and deified Jesus Christ, now a God over his own universe, go down to that kingdom so people could visit with him? Why would an exalted Jesus Christ's presence be any more tolerable, to them or to him?

The underlying promise of exaltation in Mormon theology is that we become the same thing that Elohim now is, and this would apply to Jesus and the Holy Ghost too. If we're the same as Elohim, at the same station, the same glory, the same type of Godly activities, how does this thing about who will visit whom in what kingdom make any sense?

Read Section 76. That is where the doctrine that each respective kingdom in ministered to by the Father, Son or HG.

Jason,

How does sec 76 resolve the dilemma seth describes?

And, if every LDS man and his wives has a universe of their own, who is inhabiting the highest level of the CK?

Also, if the CK is on the celestialized Earth, how is it divided up into levels? (Or is it still taught that the Earth will receive its paradisaical glory... IE become the CK)?

Hmmm...

~dancer~

It all becomes an illogical mess, and time to pull out the "no time or space" card. Everywhere, at all times... kind of like that protestant god they used to make fun of in the temple.

Sethbag wrote:This makes absolutely no sense in context with the rest of LDS theology. It assumes that Jesus and the Holy Ghost remain as they are supposed to be now, ie: not married, Celestialized Gods in their own right, pumping out spirit children and ruling over their own universes, as Elohim is supposed to be doing now.

No, I don't think it does. I would think that the Son and the Holy Ghost are already equal in glory. That said . . .

What is the rationale for why a person in the Telestial Kingdom could not experience the presence of either Jesus or Elohim, but could experience the presence of the Holy Ghost, if the Holy Ghost goes onto to a proper exaltation of the type Mormons today look forward to? If Elohim and Jesus cannot, or will not, go down to the Telestial Kingdom to visit his subjects there, why would the exalted and deified Holy Ghost do it?

Likewise, if a person in the Terrestrial Kingdom cannot experience the presence of Elohim, why would the Celestialized, married, and deified Jesus Christ, now a God over his own universe, go down to that kingdom so people could visit with him? Why would an exalted Jesus Christ's presence be any more tolerable, to them or to him?

I do not know. Maybe it's not an issue of glory. Maybe it's an issue of embarassment or guilt. Maybe honorable men can stand Jesus because they have worshipped Him, but cannot stand the glory of the Father because the rejected the fulness while on Earth.

beastie wrote:Jason,

How does sec 76 resolve the dilemma seth describes?

I was simply answering this question:

Basically it's a repetition of something I've heard many times in the church, but I don't recall exactly how it's scripturally defended.

Sethbag wrote:Nehor just posted something in the "Gaz wants to slaughter fags like cattle" thread which I think is deserving of its own discussion, hence this thread.

It's the idea that one will experience God's presence in the Celestial Kingdom, but in the Terrestrial Kingdom one will not experience God's presence, but will still be ministered to by Jesus Christ. And in the Telestial Kingdom one will not experience Jesus Christ's presence, but will be ministered to by the Holy Ghost.

This makes absolutely no sense in context with the rest of LDS theology. It assumes that Jesus and the Holy Ghost remain as they are supposed to be now, ie: not married, Celestialized Gods in their own right, pumping out spirit children and ruling over their own universes, as Elohim is supposed to be doing now.

What is the rationale for why a person in the Telestial Kingdom could not experience the presence of either Jesus or Elohim, but could experience the presence of the Holy Ghost, if the Holy Ghost goes onto to a proper exaltation of the type Mormons today look forward to? If Elohim and Jesus cannot, or will not, go down to the Telestial Kingdom to visit his subjects there, why would the exalted and deified Holy Ghost do it?

Likewise, if a person in the Terrestrial Kingdom cannot experience the presence of Elohim, why would the Celestialized, married, and deified Jesus Christ, now a God over his own universe, go down to that kingdom so people could visit with him? Why would an exalted Jesus Christ's presence be any more tolerable, to them or to him?

The underlying promise of exaltation in Mormon theology is that we become the same thing that Elohim now is, and this would apply to Jesus and the Holy Ghost too. If we're the same as Elohim, at the same station, the same glory, the same type of Godly activities, how does this thing about who will visit whom in what kingdom make any sense?

Well it is like this. D&C 76 came well before the teachings about becoming Gods, populating your own planet and gods into infinity was even thought oif or taught in the Church. So there was no teaching about Jesus or the HG going on to some higher glory.

How can one harmonize the idea that Jesus, now as a God taking the Father's place and the Father moving up in Glory? I am not sure. Maybe Jesus is sitll lower ranking somehow so he will minister to those in a lower kingdom. By the way the idea taught in D&C 76 does not mean Jesus and the HG won't be in the Celestial. I always envisioned them paying a visit to the lower kingdoms here and there.

Jason wrote: I always envisioned them paying a visit to the lower kingdoms here and there.

Same here. I interpreted the scripture to be speaking about stewardship.

The Telestial kingdom is similar to how thinsg are now, except theres no death or want. We have the Holy Ghost, but not the presence of Christ.

The Terrestrial kingdom would be similar to how the First presidency and Apostles experience things. They ar eoccasionally visited by Christ himself who gives them guidance and speaks with them.

The Celestial kingdom is to be equal to Christ and a member of the royal family, with all veils removed and the abiltiy to bear all presences and glories.

Also when thinking of things in a "kingdom" or "degree" sense it is better to view it as a degree of authority. Similar to Bishop, Stake President, Seventy, etc.......