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I find it AMAZING that in the LDS church leaders and many believers seem to think people stop believing in their church due to sin.

It is as if some believe that sinning actually makes people stop believing in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the LDS church.

What about others who leave their non-LDS religions? Did they too disbelieve because of sin? Is sin the reason they can no longer believe in their untrue religion?

Are former Scientologists those who sinned hence became apostates? Did a sin cause some former FLDS believers to leave their church? Are the current Amish folks the believers who never sinned? What about Catholic apostates... did they sin too?

Do people leave the LDS church because of sin but believers of other religions leave because they don't believe some aspects of their church? I don't think so; my observation is that people stop believing their respective faith traditions for basically the same reasons... they don't believe them. Simple as that.

OTOH, if sin is the reason all people stop believing in their religion, and if sin actually helps people disbelieve that which is untrue, the way I see we should all encourage lots of sinning. ;-)

Now just to clarify, I think there are plenty of not perfect people in all sorts of belief systems and faith traditions and I don't think "sin" has anything to do with disbelief regardless of the church. I just find it really odd that leaders and believers have linked up sin with disbelief in the LDS church but seem to completely ignore this line of "reasoning" in other religions.


~dancer~

truth dancer wrote:I find it AMAZING that in the LDS church leaders and many believers seem to think people stop believing in their church due to sin.

It is as if some believe that sinning actually makes people stop believing in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the LDS church.

What about others who leave their non-LDS religions? Did they too disbelieve because of sin? Is sin the reason they can no longer believe in their untrue religion?
...
~dancer~

For example my wife. She is a daughter of a protestant - Reformed/Calvinist - pastor (You can call him minister).
She is - by default - sinner. Anyway, her father may rolling in his grave.
I am searching an old hungarian member who can tell her that before 1990 his father was an accomplise of the satan.


Editing out bad grammar...

truth dancer wrote:I find it AMAZING that in the LDS church leaders and many believers seem to think people stop believing in their church due to sin.

It is as if some believe that sinning actually makes people stop believing in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the LDS church.

What about others who leave their non-LDS religions? Did they too disbelieve because of sin? Is sin the reason they can no longer believe in their untrue religion?

Are former Scientologists those who sinned hence became apostates? Did a sin cause some former FLDS believers to leave their church? Are the current Amish folks the believers who never sinned? What about Catholic apostates... did they sin too?

Do people leave the LDS church because of sin but believers of other religions leave because they don't believe some aspects of their church? I don't think so; my observation is that people stop believing their respective faith traditions for basically the same reasons... they don't believe them. Simple as that.

OTOH, if sin is the reason all people stop believing in their religion, and if sin actually helps people disbelieve that which is untrue, the way I see we should all encourage lots of sinning. ;-)

Now just to clarify, I think there are plenty of not perfect people in all sorts of belief systems and faith traditions and I don't think "sin" has anything to do with disbelief regardless of the church. I just find it really odd that leaders and believers have linked up sin with disbelief in the LDS church but seem to completely ignore this line of "reasoning" in other religions.


~dancer~

[Mormon pseudo-logic]

What you don’t seem to understand, dear truth dancer, is that people from the other religions don’t need to sin in order to stop believing in their religions, strictly because those religions aren’t true. In the case of Mormonism, however, in order to get past the overwhelming spirit confirming its truthfulness, you have to begin sinning. It’s the only way out. You have to be stark raving mad to deny the spirit, despite the reams of evidence that only a sinner would acknowledge.

Besides, to not believe is a sin, so no matter what, we’re right. If you don’t believe, you’re a sinner.

[/Mormon pseudo-logic]

truth dancer wrote:It is as if some believe that sinning actually makes people stop believing in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the LDS church.

It's not as if I believe that. I do believe that. I've seen it many, many times. It's not that somehow they have a big epiphany where they realize it's not true. They stop wanting it to be true and then make the choice not to believe it.

The Nehor wrote:

truth dancer wrote:It is as if some believe that sinning actually makes people stop believing in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the LDS church.

It's not as if I believe that. I do believe that. I've seen it many, many times. It's not that somehow they have a big epiphany where they realize it's not true. They stop wanting it to be true and then make the choice not to believe it.

So... to the point of this thread, do you believe the same is true for all religious believers or just the LDS ones?

If not, why do you think others stop believing in their religion?

And if you do think sin does help people stop believing untruth you are supporting my point. If "sin" is what helps people to disbelieve what is not true, should we not encourage sinning?

Or maybe you would want to encourage sin in everyone but LDS believers?

:-)

truth dancer wrote:So... to the point of this thread, do you believe the same is true for all religious believers or just the LDS ones?

If not, why do you think others stop believing in their religion?

And if you do think sin does help people stop believing untruth you are supporting my point. If "sin" is what helps people to disbelieve what is not true, should we not encourage sinning?

Or maybe you would want to encourage sin in everyone but LDS believers?

:-)

To a degree it's true for everyone.

No, because sin might encourage people to reject moral teachings but it doesn't usually replace them with anything better. It particularly encourages people to throw out moral imperatives backed up by a Supreme Being. I haven't known sin to make anyone better so I'm against encouraging it.

The idea that most or even many people leave the Church for intellectual reasons is laughable to me. Could some do so? Sure, I've never met one off the internet though. On my Mission I spent a lot of time with the less-active. Many still believe it but won't come back. Some got offended 10 years ago at something that was said. Some fell into sins and chose the world over repentance. I've heard lots of people insist that they now know it's not true but when I heard their whole exit story sin always ended up preceding the search for a reason to leave. There are probably people out there who are exceptions to this. I've just never met one.

The Nehor wrote: The idea that most or even many people leave the Church for intellectual reasons is laughable to me. Could some do so? Sure, I've never met one off the internet though. On my Mission I spent a lot of time with the less-active. Many still believe it but won't come back. Some got offended 10 years ago at something that was said. Some fell into sins and chose the world over repentance. I've heard lots of people insist that they now know it's not true but when I heard their whole exit story sin always ended up preceding the search for a reason to leave. There are probably people out there who are exceptions to this. I've just never met one.

Well, there are two explanations for this:

- The range of things considered sinful in the Mormon church is so huge, whatever they told you could be related to one Mormon "sin" or another.
- You haven't met many exmormons, or at least, talked to all of them about why they left.

The fact is, whether a person is Mormon or not, they "sin" in the eyes of Mormons all the time. The fact that you put people's sins together with the event of them leaving does not make the two related (or that one lead to the other). If they were related, nobody would be a Mormon any more.

Hi TD, you might have shed some light on this in your last sentence:

I just find it really odd that leaders and believers have linked up sin with disbelief in the LDS church but seem to completely ignore this line of "reasoning" in other religions. (bold added by RM)

TD you are crediting LDSism with "reasoning" which they do not have when it comes to their theology and edicts. This is not saying their theology and edicts do not have purpose. They obviously do. That is to substantiate their ecclesiastical 'spin' on traditional Christianism. Which is also beyond reasoning but can be accepted for many reasons. I'll leave you and others to suggest some... Warm regards, Roger :-)

The Nehor wrote:

truth dancer wrote:It is as if some believe that sinning actually makes people stop believing in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the LDS church.

It's not as if I believe that. I do believe that. I've seen it many, many times. It's not that somehow they have a big epiphany where they realize it's not true. They stop wanting it to be true and then make the choice not to believe it.

Is belief a choice?

The Nehor wrote:The idea that most or even many people leave the Church for intellectual reasons is laughable to me. Could some do so? Sure, I've never met one off the internet though...

Let me be your first.