DiscussMormonism.com

MADB has an interesting poll going that asks at what age posters would allow their children to join another religion if they wanted to do so. Most posters have answered "18+". I thought I'd share a couple posts from there that I thought were amusing. A poster named "Bee Eff" writes,

I put other because I do not intend to have my child decide such. I am a behaviorist, and as such we discuss other religions, I approximate decisions that could lead to changes in belief and such. I do not believe my children will ever leave the LDS Church due to their experiences and the conflicts I have placed before them to give them a taste of doubt and a method for them to achieve a cessation of cognitive dissonance. Most would say that I have "brainwashed" my children, such is in fact true with me because I have the tools and knowledge available to teach my children such that they most likely will not and thus far the older children have not, diverted from the path I set them upon.

If they were to approach me about changing religions, I would allow such at nearly any point. I would however enforce LDS standards upon them because that is the standard of my home regardless of religious views. They would also be required to attend services at the LDS Church because that is what my household does during that period of time, and that will not change while they live under my roof.

Also, a change in religion would have to include a thorough report on said religion addressing its beliefs as well as addressing its detractors. They would also need to rationally discuss their motivations in changing religions with myself. These would be required as a means a verifying that my child had a thorough understanding of what the change would entail. Also, all religious activities of said religion would be required of the child. My child would be required to be a pinnacle of whichever religion he joined, he must excel in it and be devoted to it.

Cinepro responded,

I agree with Bee Eff's approach. I think people who are considering joining a Church should be required to provide a thorough report on said religion addressing its beliefs as well as addressing its detractors. This would, of course, include 8-year olds considering being baptised into the LDS Church.

As for the results of the poll itself, I think the official LDS doctrine on the subject is that a child is old enough at the age of 8 to determine which Church they want to spend the rest of their life in. To be consistent, this would also mean that a child at the age of 8 is old enough to determine if they don't want to join the LDS Church, or want to join another Church (if that Church will have them).

I love cinepro.

-Chris

In regard to people like "Bee Eff", he/she does note:

If they were to approach me about changing religions, I would allow such at nearly any point. I would however enforce LDS standards upon them because that is the standard of my home regardless of religious views. They would also be required to attend services at the LDS Church because that is what my household does during that period of time, and that will not change while they live under my roof.

I think that's fair enough. The parents have a right to bring up their children in whatever religion they want, and even to ask that while under the family roof that they abide by the family choice of religion. I was brought up Catholic, and you can bet your ass my father would never have condoned me becoming a Mormon at 13 or 14. I made this choice at 20, and my very religious father respected my personal choice, even though I departed from a few centuries of family religious tradition.

These would be required as a means a verifying that my child had a thorough understanding of what the change would entail. Also, all religious activities of said religion would be required of the child. My child would be required to be a pinnacle of whichever religion he joined, he must excel in it and be devoted to it. (My emphasis)

I think this father is allowing his child agency. Of course he's concerned. Does he/she (my child) fully understand the change they contemplate? If they do, he seems to say, then I hope you "excel" and will be "devoted" to the new religion of your choice.

Cinepro's comment is not realistic:

I agree with Bee Eff's approach. I think people who are considering joining a Church should be required to provide a thorough report on said religion addressing its beliefs as well as addressing its detractors. This would, of course, include 8-year olds considering being baptised into the LDS Church.

As for the results of the poll itself, I think the official LDS doctrine on the subject is that a child is old enough at the age of 8 to determine which Church they want to spend the rest of their life in. To be consistent, this would also mean that a child at the age of 8 is old enough to determine if they don't want to join the LDS Church, or want to join another Church (if that Church will have them).

For a start, this isn't what "Bee Eff" suggested. No 8 year old child is sufficiently knowledgeable enough to make a decision about which church to join. Not even Joseph Smith could do that at 8. I do think that 8 is too young to impose such questions, but I do think that any 8 year old can answer other "accountability" questions in regard to his/her personal life. Do you understand what stealing is? Do you understand what honesty is? Do you understand what being kind to your fellowmen is? But as to which church is "right", those questions can only come with age and much more knowledge.

So does Bee Eff believe in belief? In other words, what would happen if one of his children stopped believing in God whatsoever and became atheist? Would Bee Eff's head explode or something?

Anyhow, Bee Eff does exemplify the type of attitude that I have a very hard time with. He's got children under his control and influence and he's doing everything in his power to make sure that they believe what he wishes them to believe. By the time they're adults they will probably either be unable to really consider their belief system on its merits in an objective fashion, or will achieve the ability to do so only with great difficulty. I don't like it that Muslims do it, I don't like it that Jews do it, and I certainly don't like it that Mormons do it.

That being said, there's really no good alternative. It's not something the state can or ought to do, and all we can really do is reason with each other and hope that persuasion will help. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be helping that much, and the Bee Eff's of this world continue raising up carbon copies of themselves, set for life on a path they didn't choose, and molded with behaviors and a worldview which make choosing their own path very difficult.

Sethbag wrote: Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be helping that much, and the Bee Eff's of this world continue raising up carbon copies of themselves, set for life on a path they didn't choose, and molded with behaviors and a worldview which make choosing their own path very difficult.

Seth, if an atheist family raised children as atheists, would they be carbon-copies of their parents?

Churches are lame, but, they exist as an acceptable part of society so until people universally become more rational, churches will continue to exist. If the expectation is that children are brought up without "indoctrination" and introduced unbiasedly to all religions and competing philosophies and then allowed to freely make a decision at sixteen or eighteen, I think that's a little impractical. I don't see an issue of baptizing babies that becomes a moral violation greater than the common acceptence of religion in general. Baptising eight year olds under the mantra of free agency and accountibility is done under the same self-deception as promoting a church with no paid ministry or claiming countercult ministries are in it for the money while Mormon apologists are not paid.

Mormons should be far less shocked when their adult children "violate the covenants they made at baptism". But, practically speaking, if they raised the age of baptism to eighteen and required a study of other faiths, well, then most Mormons who are active in the current system at 18 would just get baptized at 18 instead. It would change nothing.

Sethbag wrote:So does Bee Eff believe in belief? In other words, what would happen if one of his children stopped believing in God whatsoever and became atheist? Would Bee Eff's head explode or something?

LOL

Anyhow, Bee Eff does exemplify the type of attitude that I have a very hard time with. He's got children under his control and influence and he's doing everything in his power to make sure that they believe what he wishes them to believe. By the time they're adults they will probably either be unable to really consider their belief system on its merits in an objective fashion, or will achieve the ability to do so only with great difficulty. I don't like it that Muslims do it, I don't like it that Jews do it, and I certainly don't like it that Mormons do it.

Why have a belief system where you need to do this? Isn't that a red flag when come right out and admit you had to brainwash your children to ensure they wouldn't quit believing the fairy tales you've placed on their little minds? Holy heck, I think there is clearly a problem here. Reality shouldn't be this much work!

That being said, there's really no good alternative. It's not something the state can or ought to do, and all we can really do is reason with each other and hope that persuasion will help. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be helping that much, and the Bee Eff's of this world continue raising up carbon copies of themselves, set for life on a path they didn't choose, and molded with behaviors and a worldview which make choosing their own path very difficult.

I don't know how old Bee Eff's kids are, but if he has a big Mormon family, I think there's a pretty good chance one of his kids will have similar personality traits and attitudes as Bee Eff, but will decide to apply them through the lense of another religion or most likely atheism (as ex-mormons tend towards). Odds are there will be a black sheep who turns these tools against him.

And members wonder why outsiders view the LDS church as a cult. :-(

~dancer~

cinepro wrote:I agree with Bee Eff's approach. I think people who are considering joining a Church should be required to provide a thorough report on said religion addressing its beliefs as well as addressing its detractors. This would, of course, include 8-year olds considering being baptised into the LDS Church.

LOL! cinepro is truly one of the great ones.

Ray A wrote:

Sethbag wrote: Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be helping that much, and the Bee Eff's of this world continue raising up carbon copies of themselves, set for life on a path they didn't choose, and molded with behaviors and a worldview which make choosing their own path very difficult.

Seth, if an atheist family raised children as atheists, would they be carbon-copies of their parents?

I would greatly prefer that atheist parents concentrate on teaching their children critical thinking and the value of evidence and rational thought, than teach the "dogma" of "there is no God". If all atheist parents taught was that there is no God, but without the critical thinking skills and whatnot, then they'd be just as guilty.

In the end, active parents are going to leave their children with ways of thinking about the world. The Bee Effs of the world will leave their kids with ways of thinking specifically designed to support continued belief in their one particular religious dogma. Hopefully the thoughtful atheists will leave their kids with an open mind but valuing evidence and critical thinking.

Since parents are going to influence their kids towards a mode of thinking, I'd vastly prefer it be "critical thinking" and not "magical thinking."

Gadianton wrote:Mormons should be far less shocked when their adult children "violate the covenants they made at baptism". But, practically speaking, if they raised the age of baptism to eighteen and required a study of other faiths, well, then most Mormons who are active in the current system at 18 would just get baptized at 18 instead. It would change nothing.

I'm not sure I can agree. The way every Mormon parent I've ever met treats baptism at age 8, the children know nothing about any possibility of not getting baptised. It's truly a fait accompli. Merely teaching someone that there are in fact legitimate alternative paths, at an age where they have a chance of comprehending that, would change a lot, I reckon.