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As there has been some discussion here and on other boards about Mike Ash's book, I thought some may be interested in listening to him on Van Hale's radio program today. The following description of today's topic is from Van Hale, who does a weekly radio broadcast from Utah about Mormon topics. Note that you can call in to discuss this directly with Mr. Ash or you can send questions via email.

For the record, I don't have a problem with the book title. I think it is somewhat clever and memorable. I am certainly not offended by the title, like at least one poster who apparently felt outraged about its similarity to "shaken baby syndrome". I do believe there is at least one scripture in the Bible that refers to "shaken faith" and even if not, it is certainly a widespread term regarding faith and many other matters. I wouldn't mind reading it to see what answers Mr. Ash proposes for LDS who have questions or doubts.

I am particularly interested in the subject of prophetic perfection as the lack thereof seems to be a frequent criticism of the Mormon Church. I never have expected prophets to be perfect - they are not described as such in the Bible; indeed, a basic tenet of my EV faith has always been that God uses imperfect vessels so no need for despair when considering our own imperfections. The prophetic utterances of any so-called prophets - now that is different.

Anyway, here is what Mr. Hale has to say about today's program. I'd be really interested if anyone has any feedback after listening or participating.


Date: Sunday, 17 August 2008
Subject: A Mormon Apologist

Mike Ash will be my guest to discuss his new book: Shaken Faith Syndrome: Strengthening One's Testimony in the Face of Criticism and Doubt. His approach is the presentation of source material and logic to answer, from a faith promoting perspective, many issues which have lead some to doubt their LDS faith. He deals with such topics as: Revelation, prophets, scripture and historical issues. Some of the specifics include, changes in scripture, response to the insistence that prophets must be infallible and omniscient, challenges to Book of Mormon histority and similar challenges to the Book of Abraham, the first vision issues and many others.

You are invited to begin sending questions by email which you would like me to ask of the author to van.hale@k-talk.com

Time: 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST

Host: Van Hale

Radio Station: KTKK 630 AM, Salt Lake City

Live Internet Streaming Audio can be accessed at:

http://www.k-talk.com or mms://stream.netro.ca/ktkk

Participation: All points of view are welcomed and encouraged. I invite your participation by sending questions, comments and response via email at any time during the week. I will read your email and give comment during an upcoming program. Also, you may participate in each discussion, live, by sending email to me during my weekly talk shows. Send your email to: van.hale@k-talk.com

Or, you may participate live by phone during my talk show by calling:

Salt Lake Call-in Number: 254-5855.
Outside of Salt Lake Number: 801-254-5855.

Thanks for the heads-up, Nightingale. I would've missed it otherwise.

Oh, I'm glad you're interested. Maybe you can give us a summary. I'm in the middle of a sunny Sunday off and it's just at the wrong time for me.

While we're here, and since this is my thread so I can derail if I want to, are you getting some crazy stretchy looking posts lately? The first post of every thread is stretching out so I need to horizontal scroll to see it all. I think this started yesterday. I see nothing in said posts to make them stretch out like that (such as long links).

Those are the google ads that are being inserted into the end of each of the topmost posts on every page. I hope there's an option for making them narrower.

It's on.

Live Internet Streaming Audio can be accessed at:
www.k-talk.com or mms://stream.netro.ca/ktkk

Hello folks,

Here's my synopsis of the Van Hale program, titled "Mormon Miscellaneous," that took place tonight with Mike Ash, author of Shaken Faith Syndrome, in-studio.

In the following notes:

"VH" = Van Hale.
"MA" = Mike Ash.
"BY" = Brigham Young.
"Joseph Smith" = Joseph Smith, Jr.

These are merely the highlights as I judged them. They are, by necessity, brief and to-the-point. If any details got left out, then I apologize in advance. All quotes are paraphrases, not word-for-word transcriptions. I boldfaced the comments I found to be especially noteworthy. Enjoy:

• VH introduced the author and the book. Says that when it comes to difficult or challenging issues, most members have no interest whatsoever in this sort of thing.
  
• VH: What causes people to get shaken faith? MA: 1. Polygamy & all issues thereunto, 2. Book of Abraham, 3. No archaeological support for Book of Abraham, 4. First Vision.
  
• VH: Another problem is the expectation that "church & its leaders must be perfect." MA: That's what ties into most if not all of the rest of the tough issues. VH: Once members grasp that the leaders have their own opinions, etc., then 90% of the problems go away. MA: When it comes to the First Vision, critics bring up various versions, but it's okay once we learn that Joseph was also a man who was telling the story according to his understanding at the time.
  
• VH: "I would disagree with some stuff in the book, but agree with the vast majority. Here's something I disagree with, but before I go there, here's a caller:"
  
• CALLER #1: Praises Allah in another language, is not quite coherent. Mentions "Joseph Jailbird Smith," "the Mormon cult," etc. Banters a bit about the church denying gays civil rights. VH cuts the caller off and says, "How does he know what the church believes about civil rights when the church has made no official statement about civil rights one way or another?"
  
• VH: One of the biggest problems I've encountered with people who've left the church and are now critics is that they have to "know." Saying that you "know" in church is dangerous. MA: Yes, doubt is a part of life. The best you can hope for is faith or strong belief. VH: If you "know" the Book of Mormon is perfect, then when someone hands you a pamphlet showing the changes in it, what do you do? But if you only believed the Book of Mormon is perfect, then when you get that pamphlet you're much better able to handle the new information.
  
• VH talks about an old college friend arguing that David O. McKay, as a prophet, was infallible. VH disagreed with this friend. MA: The crux isn't the actual issues; the crux is the role of a prophet. The problem is our perception of what a prophet is; the problem isn't really the issues themselves.
  
• VH: There's a problem with people pitting one prophet against another. Folks say that if the prophets were really prophets, then they (the prophets) would always agree with each other. VH uses Adam-God as an example. Some people will add commas here or substitute words there in order to harmonize Spencer W. Kimball with BY; some such arguments are better not to have been presented in the first place.
  
• MA: Joseph Smith understands some things modern prophets don't and vice-versa. BY said that no revelation is given in its perfect form. Mistakes are made along the way. "Anything prophets say must be the gospel truth" is a dangerous mindset to have.
  
• VH: "We have a lot of opinions in Mormonism, but not much revelation." MA agrees, "We don't have that many doctrines in Mormonism." The purpose of the leaders is to get us to open the dialogue with God like they have.
  
• VH reads an e-mail which quotes Elder Perry's (not the apostle Perry's) 1998 Ensign article about how Mormons accept a literal flood. MA says he accepts Elder Perry's right to give his opinion in an official magazine, but is Elder Perry correct or not? MA believes in Noah and his ark but doesn't believe there was a worldwide flood. In the scriptures, "world" = "land." Is everything about the account literally accurate, e.g. two of every animal? The church does not have an official position about this. We should take BY's words seriously due to his position, but it doesn't mean we're bound by them.
  
• VH says that most Mormons believe in a literal flood, but college students and college graduates who have studied geology, archaeology, biology, etc. don't bring their knowledge up in church. MA says Mormon literalists believe in a worldwide flood 'cause they haven't explored the issue. Once they go to college, their understanding deepens.
  
• MA has quote of Eugene England from Eugene England's notes taken from a meeting given by N. Eldon Tanner. Tanner says that members shouldn't just believe church magazines without using their heads.
  
• CALLER #2: Knows caller #1. How can Caller #1 prove that Caller #1 is a muslim, etc.? Therefore, lots of things we believe can't be outright proven. Caller #2 then goes into a bizarre rant about how he paid for a banana cream pie and delivered it to the K-Talk studios but caller #1 took credit for it. (I told you it was bizarre!)
  
• VH talks about MA's presentation on his book, Shaken Faith Syndrome, at Sunstone. VH says that the Sunstoners went easy on MA. MA says that the toughest criticisms come from people who haven't even read the book. MA says that most Sunstoners don't like FAIR or FARMS. John Dehlin says MA should've been more sympathetic to those who are leaving the church. John-Charles Duffy wonders whether MA has a testimony, and if so, why didn't MA include it in the book? MA responds that it's only by a testimony that you can believe any of these things, so the fact that he has a testimony shoud've been obvious.

END OF FIRST HOUR

• VH: What is FAIR? MA: FAIR is a non-profit organization that helps struggling members & investigators, etc. who want well-researched answers to questions that are troubling. We've had 10 conferences, we bring in the "big guns" in LDS scholarship. We know that prophets aren't perfect and misunderstand things that've been written by former prophets in the past. If we expand our horizons, many of these issues dissolve on their own.
  
• VH: One technique of rabid anti-Mormons is that they throw everything at you as fast as they can. They don't let you deal with the issues one at a time. MA agrees.
  
• CALLER #3: (this guy is named "Art Bullah" and has his own radio show. He is an expatriate living in Mexico. Apparently he thinks that he's "The One Mighty and Strong" and that the whole church has fallen away except for him. VH is very familiar with him.) Caller #3 says, "You both seem like two cultural Mormons to whom 'all is well in Zion.' You're dedicated to the proposition that the church can't be led astray, that you can't be deluded, etc. BY says that whenever there's a doctrinal clash, someone doesn't have the Spirit of God, and that the gospel never changes. Your attitude seems to be one of accommodation of contradiction." VH responds by saying that we can trade BY quotes all day. Quotes BY that "there have been many times that I have preached wrong." Caller says that VH is a liberal, VH agrees. Caller says that Liberalism is VH's religion. VH says that Joseph Smith was a Liberal.
  
  Anyway, Caller #3 says that Duane Crowther, in his book "The Prophets Speak," talks about prophets who preached outside of the church's authority. Many biblical prophets were rebels from church authority in their day. Bruce R. McConkie wanted the book to be burned. VH says that he talked with Crowther and Crowther said that that's not the way it really went down. Caller believes in Adam-God, etc. Lots of back-and-forth, mostly about the concept of "progressive revelation." Caller says that that concept isn't in the scriptures anywhere (thus meaning that the gospel can never change?).
  
• CALLER #4: Says he's a non-Mormon but a Christian. Complained about Mormons in Utah's legislature lying, bearing false witness, breaking the law, etc. in violation of their own church's teachings. If we're all Christians, why do they do that? MA says he doesn't know about that stuff, but that people are the same everywhere, Mormons or not. If anything is amiss, he'd need proof of it. (This back-and-forth went on for a long time.)
  
• CALLER #5: Talks about how to handle anti-Mormons. She says, if an anti-Mormon comes at you, don't take one question at a time, like VH recommended; just sit and listen. Caller #5's mom used to say, "If you roll with the pigs, you get dirty." So you two shouldn't argue with anti-Mormons or lower yourselves to their level. MA: FAIR and I used to be "in your face" in the past but have backed away from that. My book and FAIR don't argue with critics or engage in debates; they address the issues for members who are struggling. Caller says she had a friend as a teenager who became "enslaved" to anti-Mormon literature, so that's why we should keep the prophet's counsel to avoid this stuff entirely. MA reiterates his previous response.
  
• I had sent VH an e-mail earlier, asking MA to field the following questions. VH read the questions out loud:
  
  1. If Noah's flood wasn't worldwide, then why did he build an ark instead of just walking uphill?
  2. If Noah's flood wasn't worldwide, then why did he bother to gather any animals?
  3. If Noah's flood wasn't worldwide, then when God put the rainbow in the sky, what, exactly, was he promising never to do again?
  
  MA talks about the rainbow first, how it must've existed long before then. VH: Genesis says it didn't rain before the flood. MA: Just because it didn't mention rain doesn't mean it never actually rained. (This diversion caused MA to never answer the original question.)
  
  MA: Regarding walking uphill, if there weren't any hills tall enough for Noah to climb, he'd need a boat. MA: "I believe in Noah, God really did save Noah and Noah needed provisions to start a new farm," hence the ark, etc.
  
• CALLER #6: Aren't we sent here to learn these answers for ourselves? (By this, Caller #6 probably meant to criticize MA for writing his book in the first place.) MA: Most prophets (who wrote their revelations down for the rest of us) got their answers after praying for them, i.e. after learning the answers for themselves. Caller #6: People who rip on religion are the ones who aren't getting the answers they want.
  
• VH reads the Joseph Smith quote about how reaching all knowledge and exaltation will be a great work we'll pursue even after the grave. Therefore, since that's the case, why worry about whether we have the answers about (for example) Noah's flood? (VH probably meant that members should therefore not worry about not getting all the answers to these controversies in this life) MA quotes a FAIR list member who wrote, "I don't care whether the pearly gates swing or slide, just so long as they open." (Most likely a roundabout way of saying that he doesn't care whether he discovers the answers to these controversies, just so long as the answers are out there somewhere.)

END OF SECOND HOUR

Thanks for the great write up.

Interesting that they brought up Noah's flood and that MA retreated to the "local-flood" position, which totally destroys any meaning of the story (but it does make the biblical account one of the funniest stories in the Bible, so I support it on that level). Once local-flood believing LDS realize how silly the local-flood theory is, I suppose they'll segue into an "allegorical" understanding poste haste. If the local-flood theory is what it takes to get them there, then it will have served its purpose.

Terms like "doubts from questioning members" kind of stick in my craw. It's not doubts at all. It's dawning realizations. And "questioning" members are really members who are starting to part the web of self-deceit and realize that the church isn't actually true after all.

Mike Ash approaches the evidence of Mormonism's non-truth as a problem to be solved, rather than as evidence that his belief system isn't actually true after all. He's looking for ways to believe, not for understanding of whether his beliefs are in fact actually true.

If there were some kind of cosmic eternal justice, I wonder how much people who fight against the evidence for their own partisan satisfaction will have to pay for all the minds they kept clouded, just when those minds were starting to part the fog of belief and see that they had been believing in a non-true religion in pretty much the same way as billions of others believe in their own non-true religions.

Mike Ash: I am not a "questioner" or a "doubter". I'm someone who realized that the LDS church is on the wrong side of the "is this really true?" argument, just like every other church out there. The LDS church is not only not true; it's obviously not true, and success for you depends on the extent to which you can obfuscate that for people and prevent them from seeing it. Shame on you.

More about the caller Art Bulla can be found here:
http://www.artbulla.com/zion.html

Thanks for the information, and for the synopsis. I tried to get onto the site but looked for the wrong title. I'll go back later.

I think Seth has it truly pegged. Believers believe what they are taught to believe by the church. As cultish as it can get. Pasted below is from my blog:

"...sad & weepy is how I feel at learning just how seriously disingenuous and cultish Mormonism is at its core.

Indeed I lived within it for decades that were very delightful in many respects. Probably more in denial than in ignorance; as I participated in the pre-1990 Temple Rites, to assure my Celestial inheritance when called forth into glory by my new name "Adam."

Further, to have performed "work for the dead," all but has me questioning my sanity. I guess it actually does. How could "I" have been led into such idiosyncratic weirdism?

Skillfully! By design of, "...the cunning and crafty, who take thee by the hand and lead thee gently...!"

What brings me to this reawakening? After all, I do not think, nor believe, the Mormon hierarchy are directed by "God" any more than any other living being. This I made known by my uplifted hand, in real LDS form...

Following are a few notes from Truth VS Falsehood that reaffirmed my doubts:
Cults tend to:
"...ensnare the unwary (naïve) by their specialness and false promises..."
"...leader is very "special" (talks with "God") and treated with adulation...turned into control of members lifestyles, diets, clothing (garments)...take allegiances that often affect family relationships..."
"...celebrities tend to be exploited as show-pieces..." (Donny & Marie, BYU football star...)
"...meet in restrictive enclaves, (temples)
"...parroted 'party-line' tends to end serious discussions..."
"...proselytizing and insistance on engaging group belief system...individuality is not encouraged...
"...Leaders are very power and control oriented..."
"...forbidden to reveal secret teachings, signs and rites..." (Used to be at the suffering of death, now?)
"...cultification is often splintered from traditional religions...(that become demonized)
"...contact with the dead (common in LDS)...special pronouncements (Patriarchal blessings)

The downside of these cultish Mormon practices and policies is often obscured by the glamour of specialness, and are an attraction to impressionable indoctrinated members. Who too often are oblivious to the absurdities they embrace as Divine truths. Thus investing themselves in "feel-good" fantasies that divert them from ever expanding truth into constriction and anxieties that accompany denial of the obvious..."

It is more than "saddening", it is immorally deceptive that such exagerations as Mormonism is based upon are veiled by their PR and exploited, smiling, indoctrinated Missionaries...