Bloggist plagiarizes me

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_EAllusion
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Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _EAllusion »

Ok. Not really. Though I've been plagairized before, in this case a person just wrote something that closely resembles the language I use to express the same thing. Predictably, I think it's great.

*thumbs up*

http://badidea.wordpress.com/2008/07/24 ... specially/

In having a bit of a debate with blogger Eric Kemp, we hit an impasse at which he declared that “God” is a sensible explanation for an otherwise presently inexplicable event (in this case, the nature and/or origin of the universe). It seems like as good a time as any to explore what I see as the intellectual impotence of theistic “explanations.”

Just what is it to explain something, anyhow? It is to come away with more information than you began. To have a set of distinct causes, effects, and overall processes, in place of what was once complete ignorance. It means being able to state what needs to be done for some event to happen: what specific capacities are necessary for something to do it.

To say that the standard theistic God has caused phenomenon X is essentially to say that it was done by a being that is hypothetically capable of doing anything. In short, it is a truly ingenious means of avoiding having to give any specific explanation for how X happens. No ignorance is dispelled.

Using God in this way is much like answering a multiple choice question by filling in every option, and then claiming that you have answered the question correctly. But while you are indeed sure to have filled in the correct bubble at some point in the process (unless of course, we’ve tricked you by simply not offerring the right answer there at all), your “answer” doesn’t actually tell you or anyone else which option was the correct one.

That is to say: we may indeed credit God with X, but in doing so, we have learned nothing about either X or God. Indeed, because the actual nature of God is essentially beyond our understanding in any case, saying that God has done something is really no different than saying that “some cause that we do not understand did it in a way that we don’t understand.” Which is really just a creative way of saying “we don’t what caused it or how.”

We don’t generally encounter this dodge when looking to other sorts of causes. Avalanches, for instance, are capable of crushing hikers under rocks and snow through a fairly predictable and intelligible sequence of events. Knowing that, when we find a hiker crushed in such a way, avalanches are likely suspects. An avalanche is not, however, capable of writing a sonnet.

A hypothetical God, on the other hand, would, however, be capable of both. Not because we know anything about how these things happen, but simply by definition: God can do anything (including doing any particular in nearly any way at all).

So when we find a sonnet, or a crushed hiker, or whatever else, we could claim that it was caused by God: nothing can ever preclude the philosophical possibility. But this claim wouldn’t help us understand what, specifically, happened… and it is absurdly gratuitous to boot. In order to explain a single specific event like the results of an avalanche, we are resorting to imagining something possessing every single possible causal capacity, including a nearly infinite number of things that have nothing at all to do with what is necessary to cause the effects of an avalanche.

This is why scientists, even religious scientists, aren’t particularly satisfied with theism as an explanation for any specific scientific question. They want parsimonious, targeted explanations, not indiscriminate atom bombs.

But what about questions beyond the range of empirical science? What about philosophy in general? What happens when we encounter an event so outside our experience that we do not know, and can barely even begin to conceptualize, the possible causes? Is God a more plausible answer in that case?

No.

It’s true that the cause of, say, the universe (if it had an ultimate cause) might be something totally beyond our current understanding, or perhaps even our capabilities for ever understanding. But whatever capacity is necessary to cause a universe (and perhaps also to be uncaused), there’s no reason to think that the thing that has this capacity has every other capacity as well. There’s no more reason to think that a “universe causer” could write a sonnet than to think that an avalanche could.

We don’t know how, or even if, the universe had its ontological beginning. We aren’t even sure we’re asking the right questions in regards to how to conceptualize the problem. All we do have is knowledge of the Big Bang and the beginning of the universe as we are familiar with it. And while it’s true that most of the natural laws we are familiar with likely were shaped by the particular nature of the Big Bang, we have no way to discerning how or why things are that way: i.e. if there were simply more basic, underlying laws. You could call them “natural” or not depending on how you define natural. But it’s clear that philosophically, there is no justification for calling whatever they are “guiders” or asserting that they must be God. The field of possibility remains wide open.

We are left with a simple reality: we have some stuff here (a universe) and we want to explain it. But we don’t seem to have enough evidence at present to really understand what we need to understand. So we’re left with the observable, conventional universe, and lots of unanswered questions.

What theists are generally advocating is a doubly disappointing “answer” to these questions. It means jumping to a particular conclusion despite the fact that it a) doesn’t actually explain anything and that also b) basically smuggles in all the other capacities and characteristics of God (i.e. sentience, omniscience, etc.) along with whatever still unknown capacities were actually necessary to cause our universe (if it was caused at all).

It’s an assumption that demands a huge price for no discernable benefit: paying out your entire life savings for nothing in return. It’s simply not worth it.
_EAllusion
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _EAllusion »

It gets better.

His interlocutor replies:

But, unfortunately, you strawmanned my argument. As I told you on my blog, I made no cosmological arguments for the existence of God. Perhaps you are used to theistic bloggers doing so and responded out of habit. My main point was not to “prove” or “provide evidence for” the existence of God. My main point was to show that science depends upon the uniformity of nature in order to be a viable practice, and the atheist has no reason or explanation to think that nature is uniform. This is a position that you have not responded to…but more on that later.

However, I AM implying that God is an explanation for the uniformity of nature. You admit that God COULD BE the explanation for everything but because of this ability He is an explanation for NOTHING? Come again?

1. “We may indeed now be able to credit God with X, but we have learned nothing about either X or God.”

Saying something doesn’t make it so. Let’s take the beginning of the universe as an example. Let’s start with, “God created the Universe”. What did we just learn? We learned the Universe had a cause. There’s some dispelled ignorance right there. We also learned that God must be ridiculously powerful in order to create all we see around us. We learned that God must also be ridiculously knowledgable in order to know HOW to do such a thing and make it work. Since God must have knowledge in order to create the universe, we learn that God must be sentient. If God is sentient, then we learn that God could have chosen NOT to create the Universe. If God chose TO create the Universe, we learn that the Universe had/has a purpose. If the Universe has a purpose, and you and I are sentient enough to discuss anything, then we must have a purpose too.

Learning that the Universe has a purpose doesn’t dispell ignorance?

So, God IS an explanation. The all-powerful, all-knowing Creator God of the Christian world-view created the Universe, as he said He did, and maintains the universe as it is right now, as He said He does, absolutely explains why we can know that nature is uniform.

2. “Indeed, because the actual nature of God is essentially beyond our understanding in any case, saying that God has done something is really no different than saying that “some cause that we do not understand did it in a way that we don’t understand.” ”

This is EXACTLY what YOU are saying, that some unknown force that you don’t/can’t understand caused or non-caused the universe in a way you can’t understand. I’m including God, you’re excluding Him. . . what’s the difference?

“A hypothetical God, on the other hand, would, however, be capable of both. Not because we know anything about how these things happen, but simply by definition: God can do anything (including doing any particular in nearly any way at all).”

Yup…and? So it’s not so much God that you have a problem with but you have a problem that He is capable of anything? A God with limitations would be a better explanation for the beginning of the Universe?

3. “This is why scientists, even religious scientists, aren’t particularly satisfied with theism as an explanation for any specific scientific question. They want parsimonious, targeted explanations, not indiscriminate atom bombs.”

So Newton, Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Descartes, Bacon etc. who believed exactly that “Godidit” (many of them wrote more about theology than about science); that belief stopped them from coming up with targeted explanations and inventing modern science?

4. “We don’t know how, or even if, the universe had its ontological beginning. We aren’t even sure we’re asking the right questions in regards to how to conceptualize the problem.”

And this is the ironic part. You are admitting your limitations in explaining the beginning of the universe, and yet you make a case for what CAN’T explain the Universe. When I say, “You believe that the beginning of the Universe was random” you say, “Not necessarily because we can’t/don’t know…”. But when I say, “God created the Universe”, you say, “Well I know THAT’S not an explanation.” Come again?

And here’s the other ironic part. You have yet to acknowledge the implications of this “We can’t know” position. If you can’t know what the beginning of the universe looked like, or if it had one, then you can’t know if the laws of nature are laws at all. For all you know, how nature works could change five minutes from now and all our scientific data gathered over the last 400 years would be meaningless. You have no explanation for why you trust that nature is uniform, you just believe it to be true.


He responds:

You repeat “strawman” a lot, but there’s more to fallacies than merely alleging them left and right.

First of all, I never said anything about you using cosmological arguments. My point is simply that you offerred God as explaining something that the lack of God, supposedly, cannot. But as I have argued, your “explanation” isn’t: it doesn’t actually explain anything. When I say that you can offer it, I am noting that it is not contradicted by anything (indeed, you could claim that God does everything all the time: how can this be contradicted?). But it also does not accomplish anything.

You now go on to confuse bare assertions with “learning something.” I can assert that sonnets have causes, even if they don’t, and that porcupines caused them, even if they have not. I can make all sorts of wordy assertions about things I don’t actually know. This is not, however, in any sense actually telling anyone HOW a sonnet comes to exist: the particular means employed as opposed to anything else.

Likewise, your “God causes” is quite litterally nothing more than a restatement of the original question, with all sorts of tacked on propositions, none of which have any actual necessity, because you’ve left all the core questions unanswered. How do you know that causing a universe requires knowledge? Have you created one recently? Are you going to let us all in on the process, and the specific steps, including how and when forethought is necessary to do it? What are the constraints one faces when creating a universe? What are the ranges of possibility? Can things simply exist uncaused, or not?

Again, asserting God allows you to simply bypass every single substantive question about how the universe came to be the way it is (nor does it answer the question of whether it even came to be in the first place). The philosophical idea of God has any and every capacity you can imagine, and so of course can simply be presented as an answer to every question. But it is not, in reality, an answer to any of those questions.

It’s as if you were given a multiple choice question, and you claimed that you’d gotten it right because you’d chosen EVERY option, and thus, chosen the right answer in the process. That still doesn’t tell us anything about which answer was, in fact, the right one.

The difference between you and I is simple: you are jumping to a very particular and extremely extravagant philosophical assumption on how and if the universe came to be, while I am remaining honest in admitting that we don’t know. I’m not “excluding” anything. What I’m demanding is that explanations actually get around to explaining things, instead of simply leaving the original subject a mystery and adding an even bigger and more inexplicable being (God) into the picture.

There is no irony in my stunned silence over your naked Emperor. I am pointing out that your profferred explanations don’t do any of the things explanations are supposed to do. That’s not to say that they couldn’t. It’s to say that when they take the form you’ve put them in, they don’t (hence the title of the post).

Your “come again” makes little sense. There’s nothing inconsistent with asking for an answer to a question, seeing you present what you claim is an answer, and pointing out that it does not, in fact, answer the question at all.

And there’s further nothing ironic about my views on natural laws. I fully agree that we cannot say more than we can legitimately say about them: natural laws are, after all, merely (so far) universally observed relationships and regularities. If natural laws tommorow change radically, then we most definately will have to adjust our understanding of them. If you have good cause to assert that they’ve done so: by all means: win your Nobel Prize by offering this insight to the world.

But talking about anyone “trusting” that nature is uniform is to completely misunderstand things. We don’t trust this at all: I don’t at least.

It’s an axiom: an assumption we inevitably make because without some basic assumptions we cannot even acknowledge the existence of our common reality, much less learn anything about it. But we do not have to believe that this assumption is actually true: in fact, that’s irrelevant. It’s simply a precondition for us having any sort of discussion about reality in the first place. And because these assumptions are ultimately unfoundable, we try to make as few as necessary. Science, luckily, just so happens to work on the same set that our everyday appreciation of reality requires, and so adds no additional assumptions to the mix. Your theism, on the other hand, is a take or leave proposition, meaning that we can get along fine with or without it: it has no necessity (at least none you’ve convinced anyone of yet)

Now, you are welcome to deny the basic assumptions of empirical reality and claim that we are all brains in jars hooked up to VR machines. I can’t contradict this with evidence, because all possible evidence would beg the question. Nevertheless, if we want to get on with the business of actually finding things about about this apparently nevertheless consistent and coherent reality, we have no choice but to leave such untestable possibilities at the wayside and get on with things.

Again: you can deny these assumptions: I fully admit that you can. But you have already demonstrated by your very participation in a discussion happening in the “real world,” that you in fact do not deny them, and take them as much for granted as anyone else.


That discussion goes on and ends up being full of win. Since this is a Christian Presuppositionalist he's debating, it could go on for a long time. This is brick-wall territory. Let's hope more awesome follows.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _Some Schmo »

That was awesome.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Sethbag
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _Sethbag »

by the way, EAllusion, when it comes to such argumentation, I really dig your style. And your substance. I'm not worthy. Thanks for the post, and for all of your others.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_msnobody
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _msnobody »

I guess I owe you some royalties for the times I've used the term perma-saved.
"The Lord is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth. He fulfills the desire of those who fear him; he also hears their cry and saves them.” Psalm 145:18-19 ESV
_dartagnan
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _dartagnan »

Just what is it to explain something, anyhow? It is to come away with more information than you began. To have a set of distinct causes, effects, and overall processes, in place of what was once complete ignorance. It means being able to state what needs to be done for some event to happen: what specific capacities are necessary for something to do it.


This is not necessarily true. This superfluous requirement for "explanation" seems to be convenient for someone who doesn't want anyone to be able to argue that God's existence might explain some otherwise unknown phenomena.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Some Schmo
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _Some Schmo »

dartagnan wrote:
Just what is it to explain something, anyhow? It is to come away with more information than you began. To have a set of distinct causes, effects, and overall processes, in place of what was once complete ignorance. It means being able to state what needs to be done for some event to happen: what specific capacities are necessary for something to do it.


This is not necessarily true. This superfluous requirement for "explanation" seems to be convenient for someone who doesn't want anyone to be able to argue that God's existence might explain some otherwise unknown phenomena.

LOL

So predictable.

I understand why you would say this. Only you could have something explained to you and come away with the same (or less) knowledge than you started out with.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_dartagnan
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _dartagnan »

And only radical atheists like yourself would think it is "brilliant" to try hijacking the English language for polemical purposes against religion.

To Explain:

1. to make plain or clear; render understandable or intelligible: to explain an obscure point.
2. to make known in detail: to explain how to do something.
3. to assign a meaning to; interpret:
4. to make clear the cause or reason of; account for.

I have argued before that there is plenty science cannot account for, but the proposition of God explains plenty for most people. Atheists want to claim this doesn't count as an explanation unless we present all the details about what God consists of. This is ludicrous. This is liek saying a detective cannot propose explanations for all kinds of unknowns unless the explanation includes:

1. Coming away with more information than you began.
2. Having a set of distinct causes, effects, and overall processes, in place of what was once complete ignorance.
3. Being able to state what needs to be done for some event to happen: what specific capacities are necessary for something to do it.

It is almost as if this guy just invents his own concept for the word, based on what he needed to preclude the theist from saying.

In the same rant the atheist says he can just as easily proclaim that we live in a universe where anything can happen, and that would be just as reasonable as proposing the existence of God. Right. But as I noted before, this proposition rests on the wild theory that multiple universes exist. And it is no more proved than the notion that a deity exists, and yet atheistic "scientists" have no problems entertaining this as a means to "explain" cosmic phenomena that leaves us scratching our heads in our universe. Atheists are entertaining all kinds of wild ideas to avoid the logical conclusion that a divine intelligence preexisted the Universe.

Anything but God of course.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_EAllusion
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _EAllusion »

Are you blind? What you highlighted in your definition of an explanation is what he said. Saying "God did it" doesn't "make clear the cause of; account for" or "assign meaning to."
But as I noted before, this proposition rests on the wild theory that multiple universes exist.


Uh, no it doesn't. Whatever you bury in the brute fact definition of God can just as easily be buried in the brute fact definition of the universe qua the aggregate of all things. That was his point. God caused X? Well, that's no better than saying, "the universe - as in the fundamental nature of reality - caused X." Neither explain anything. They just assert something based on a fiat definition tailor-made to account for anything. Actually, the latter is better on account of parismony, as it isn't, in addition to asserting X about the fundamental nature of existence, also isn't adding extra existential claims by attaching it to the traits of a deity.
_EAllusion
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _EAllusion »

dartagnan wrote:And only radical atheists


Am I a radical atheist? Are there non-radical atheists? Because, in my experience, you use that label to refer to any atheist who expresses coherent reasons for atheism. For what it is worth, in addition to radical atheists, this argument is accepted by the scientific and philosophical communities as a whole, which are made up of atheists and theists (and a few deists) alike. He's just pointing out that the argument he is responding to is an argument from ignorance. We call those, when they are used to conclude God, God of the Gaps arguments. They are synonymous with "false" for a reason.
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