Sam LeFevre claims Priesthood cured paralysis, healed burned skin and more...

[IHAQ]

I will here state that I have seen really phenomenal miracles. I have seen burned flesh repaired, sick babies healed, the paralyzed walk, winds stopped, the comatose revived, and many more. All by the power of the priesthood.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... qus_thread

I would be interested to know if those "All by the power of the priesthood" miracles occurred in a vacuum of other medical attention. I recall the Grimm's fairy tale about a chap making soup from a stone. Oh sure, carrots and potatoes and other items were also added, but the soup came from the stone...

“Ahh,” the stranger said to himself rather loudly, “I do like a tasty stone soup. Of course, stone soup with cabbage — that’s hard to beat.”

Soon a villager approached hesitantly, holding a cabbage he’d retrieved from its hiding place and added it to the pot.

“Wonderful” cried the stranger. “You know, I once had stone soup with cabbage and a bit of salt beef as well, and it was fit for a king.”

The village butcher managed to find some salt beef . . . and so it went, through potatoes, onions, carrots, mushrooms, and so on, until there was indeed a delicious meal for all.

http://collaborationsoup.com/stone-soup-story/

For the record, I know of burns being healed, sick babies being cured, paralysed people regaining function, winds dying down, and people coming out of comas, all WITHOUT the use of priesthood power. How is that even possible Sam? I'd also be interested in Sam's explanation for those occurrences where people didn't recover despite receiving a priesthood blessing...

A Latter-day Saint mission president serving in Bolivia died Tuesday after battling COVID-19 for nearly two months, a church spokesperson said.

President José Maria Batalla, 60, who is from Nordelta, Argentina, died of cardiac arrest at a hospital in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, said Sam Penrod, a spokesperson for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah.

https://www.deseret.com/2021/7/13/22575 ... h-covid-19

[Dr Moore]

Right. If you only look for the sixes, and can roll the dice many times without noticing the other numbers, then all those sixes sure do feel miraculous.

The other kind of priesthood miracle always has something to do with avoiding even worse outcomes. And now, with faith not to be healed, every outcome on the spectrum can be attributed in part to priesthood power.

[Philo Sofee]

Right. If you only look for the sixes, and can roll the dice many times without noticing the other numbers, then all those sixes sure do feel miraculous.

The other kind of priesthood miracle always has something to do with avoiding even worse outcomes. And now, with faith not to be healed, every outcome on the spectrum can be attributed in part to priesthood power.

I wonder if faith to not see miracles can be claimed as a miracle itself now also... the faith to have prayers not answered is now also answered prayers... the faith to not pay tithing is now the true tithing... the faith not to believe is now true belief... Isn't it glorious, isn't it wonderful?

[Moksha]

Was Sam's testimony in response to Gemli asking for evidence?

[Analytics]

Right. If you only look for the sixes, and can roll the dice many times without noticing the other numbers, then all those sixes sure do feel miraculous.

The other kind of priesthood miracle always has something to do with avoiding even worse outcomes. And now, with faith not to be healed, every outcome on the spectrum can be attributed in part to priesthood power.

I got into a discussion with believers about this issue a while ago--I don't recall if it was on Peterson's blog or on the MAD board. They were intelligent and educated--it may have been with Sam LeFevre, but I can't say for sure. I pushed the idea that the same type of double-blind scientific studies that are used to test the efficacy of drugs and other medical interventions could be used to test the efficacy of priesthood blessings.

The believers were quite upset that I would suggest this--they generally agreed that God could heal whoever He wanted whenever He wanted, regardless of whether they had a priesthood blessing or not. It was considered a presumptuous logical fallacy on my part to suggest testing the actions of God this way. Why would I presume He would go out of His way to heal somebody when the blessing was part of an experiment?

The ultimate consensus was that God healed people who received priesthood blessings and the same rate that nonmembers respond to placebos or otherwise spontaneously recover. If He healed more frequently than that, it would take away our free agency and our ability to have faith.

[Lem]

…The ultimate consensus was that God healed people who received priesthood blessings and the same rate that nonmembers respond to placebos or otherwise spontaneously recover. If He healed more frequently than that, it would take away our free agency and our ability to have faith.

Wow. That must have been quite a conversation.

So… faith is the ability to believe that the Mormon priesthood has power, while simultaneously requiring that said priesthood have no different power than the effect of placebos or spontaneous recovery, in order to support the rationale for faith in that (nonexistent) power. So faith is…. belief in something one knows to be NOT true? The cognitive dissonance required to reconcile this without sounding like an uneducated child is astonishing.

[Rivendale]

Right. If you only look for the sixes, and can roll the dice many times without noticing the other numbers, then all those sixes sure do feel miraculous.

The other kind of priesthood miracle always has something to do with avoiding even worse outcomes. And now, with faith not to be healed, every outcome on the spectrum can be attributed in part to priesthood power.

I got into a discussion with believers about this issue a while ago--I don't recall if it was on Peterson's blog or on the MAD board. They were intelligent and educated--it may have been with Sam LeFevre, but I can't say for sure. I pushed the idea that the same type of double-blind scientific studies that are used to test the efficacy of drugs and other medical interventions could be used to test the efficacy of priesthood blessings.

The believers were quite upset that I would suggest this--they generally agreed that God could heal whoever He wanted whenever He wanted, regardless of whether they had a priesthood blessing or not. It was considered a presumptuous logical fallacy on my part to suggest testing the actions of God this way. Why would I presume He would go out of His way to heal somebody when the blessing was part of an experiment?

The ultimate consensus was that God healed people who received priesthood blessings and the same rate that nonmembers respond to placebos or otherwise spontaneously recover. If He healed more frequently than that, it would take away our free agency and our ability to have faith.

Dave6 took that down quickly.

Hi Sam. I attempted a response and it doesn't appear to have stayed. So allow me to try again.

I was catching myself up this morning and ran across your post and found it interesting. I hope you don't mind me chiming in.

You had said, "I will here state that I have seen really phenomenal miracles. I have seen burned flesh repaired, sick babies healed, the paralyzed walk, winds stopped, the comatose revived, and many more. All by the power of the priesthood."

Each of those things happen when there is no priesthood at all. Indeed, each of those things have completely natural explanations. Burns heal, babies get better, the previously diagnosed paralyzed have walked, winds always stop and of course, the comatose revive quite often. At what point do we call natural occuring phenomena miracles? Do we do so, say, if Mormons are involved? or are all such cases miracles?

" I believe we need to be careful confusing miracles with magic. I believe, when, in the eternities, we have learned a bit more, we will be surprised and for some of us, delighted, at how much science God uses to accomplish his miracles."

If miracles are natural events that people assume God is behind, then where is God? Is he hidden in the imagination of those who prefer to think he exists?

In my mind, your explanation argues God away. If God is working exclusively within the realm of the natural order of things, then is he doing anything? If he is manipulating the natural to favor someone, in order to say, get someone to believe in him, then he is messing with the prized assumption of free agency that Mormonism loves. It would have to be that God knows precisely what to manipulate to get everyone to believe in him. But apparently he only manipulates some. But if he manipulates at all, he's changing every natural event, because it's all connected. And if that is the case, then everything that ever happens is because of him. If so, then all evil is on his hands. He knows how to stop Satan, for instance, but fails to do so in some cases, while doing so in others. But if he interferes and foils satan once, for one particular person, then he affects agency, because if left alone, apparently that one would have been tricked by Satan. It's a pretty big conundrum you have created, it seems. No?
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[Dr Moore]

…The ultimate consensus was that God healed people who received priesthood blessings and the same rate that nonmembers respond to placebos or otherwise spontaneously recover. If He healed more frequently than that, it would take away our free agency and our ability to have faith.

Wow. That must have been quite a conversation.

So… faith is the ability to believe that the Mormon priesthood has power, while simultaneously requiring that said priesthood have no different power than the effect of placebos or spontaneous recovery, in order to support the rationale for faith in that (nonexistent) power. So faith is…. belief in something one knows to be NOT true? The cognitive dissonance required to reconcile this without sounding like an uneducated child is astonishing.

Worse than that right? Because this argument demands that priesthood blessings actually take away from positive outcomes in the “other” group.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

…The ultimate consensus was that God healed people who received priesthood blessings and the same rate that nonmembers respond to placebos or otherwise spontaneously recover. If He healed more frequently than that, it would take away our free agency and our ability to have faith.

Wow. That must have been quite a conversation.

So… faith is the ability to believe that the Mormon priesthood has power, while simultaneously requiring that said priesthood have no different power than the effect of placebos or spontaneous recovery, in order to support the rationale for faith in that (nonexistent) power. So faith is…. belief in something one knows to be NOT true? The cognitive dissonance required to reconcile this without sounding like an uneducated child is astonishing.

Remember when the prophet forewarned the world, and most importantly the Saints, of this pandemic? Remember when he issued an edict that all Saints shall receive the vaccination so they may be sanctified or edified or whatever they are when they don’t die?



Isn’t it wonderful? Isn’t it marvelous?

- Doc

[Dr Exiled]

I don't know how anyone can believe in this nonsense. Over and over again, the busy body church wants to take credit where it has no business in taking credit.