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In another discussion concerning the fight between Rodney Meldrum and apologists, or the HGT and the LTG, I wondered if apologists have ever received a witness from the HG that they were indeed in accord with truth.

Based on DCP's reply, (if I understand him correctly), it seems he is unaware of any assertion from apologists claiming a witness from the HG that the LTG is indeed truth.

(DCP can clarify if I have not stated his position accurately... smile).

Rodney Meldrum asserts (from my understanding), that he has prayed, received inspiration, and is speaking truth as he provides information concerning the literal historical account of the Book of Mormon occurring in Northern US.

My impression is that he strongly believes (knows ?) that he is inspired from on high and is speaking truth.

Apologists OTOH, seem to dismiss the HGT because it doesn't match scientific understanding of our world. (I don't want to get into the discussion that only LDS scientists think there is scientific evidence for the Book of Mormon).

So, here is the dilemma, do believing members go with science or with the Spirit?

When they pray to know if Meldrum is speaking the truth and get a confirmation from the spirit are they being misled by the HG or by Meldrum?

Or, should one discount the testimony of Meldrum and go with apologists' argument based on science even though apologists do not seem to have been guided by the HG? (Or at least as far as I know do not claim to have received revelation as they further their theory).

What would the prophets and leaders advise... science or spirit?

~td~

Also, let's not go with the argument that some believers don't care about this topic. ;-)

truth dancer wrote:What would the prophets and leaders advise... science or spirit?

Spirience

Spirit Trump's science. When the Spirit has no comment (the case with my rare prayers mentioning Book of Mormon geography for instance) then use reasoning to develop a best hypothesis. Don't imbue your hypothesis with holiness and don't teach it as authoritative.

I wonder if it wouldn't depend on whether they are speaking to someone in private or not; or whether to an individual or to a group? and where, if in public?

Should I not be so cynical?

God, oops, I mean Good question TD. It parallels one that has been forming in my mind :-)
"Science or Spirit?" You ask: I think that question must absolutely be considered relative to time...

In Ancient-time, since we could not bring our genius with us from our pre-existance ;-) there was little, if any science known or practiced--possibly friction & gravity are exceptions.

Therefore any & everything, generally speaking, must have been dependent on the Spirit. "When will it rain, Spirit? Why doesn't it rain, Spirit? Why did it rain soooo much, Spirit???"

"There must be something directing Rain, maybe even Spirit? What could THAT be?"
"THAT must be "GOD"! Cuz HE is everywhere, knows everything & can do EVERYTHING! Even make Rain! AND, maybe, even talk to Spirit!?!"

"That's must be so Spirit can whisper to us what "God" wants us to do, eh..."

Fast forward XXXXX years cubed. Gravity & friction have been worked with by thinking folks to now, when we know, among other more important things, that there are no Moon Folks who look like Quakers, as Spirit whispered to Joseph Smith.

As well as all of those funny things about Ribs, Floods, Towers, BIG fish... AND many other things that weren't funny. Like, slaughtering men, women, and children cuz they didn't believe about "God"! And, THE big Whisper, that "God" told this Gypsy kind-a-guy about a "Promised Land" that was his for the taking...

You know TD, it seems Spirit has been more problematic than Science. Truth be told Science has straightened out, and corrected a lot of Spirit whisperings. At least as I've seen things, and hear Spirit tell me, "go with Science Rog, it's taking over from me, I've had my turn."

Warm regards, Roger

They had better go with the Spirit if they want to stay Mormons. Only a select few can understand science and still reject its underpinnings to salvage their mystical beliefs.

Most people, however, do not understand science well enough for there to be any conflict in their minds.

Science is simply a state of knowledge that is in flux anyway, right?

JustMe wrote:Science is simply a state of knowledge that is in flux anyway, right?

No.

JustMe wrote:Science is simply a state of knowledge that is in flux anyway, right?

Absolutely, which brings up an issue that was difficult for me as a believer.

in my opinion, the universe is beyond anything the human can grasp, WAY beyond.

Science is about discovery, with the clear understanding that we are going to learn more about our world and this place we inhabit, and with the knowledge that we are very limited by our human abilities.

In the LDS church, (while there is the "line upon line" idea that speaks to a completely different issue), it portrays itself as having truth. Ultimate truth. Things like God is an advanced human male living near Kolob, God placed Adam and Eve in Missouri a few thousand years ago, one goes to one of three kingdoms in heaven, one must know certain rituals and passwords to enter heaven, exalted married people procreate spirit children for eternity, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

The LDS church teaches that it is NOT the philosophies of man mingled with scripture but the true teachings of God.

Regardless... what are believers to do, trust science or spirit?

Which is more trustworthy?

There are certainly those in the LDS church who believe evolution is of Satan, the Earth is 6,000 years old, and the Noachain flood actually happened.

;-)

~td~

TD, from your post, into which I have added (Italicised) (hope ya don't mind :-)

The LDS church teaches that it (the LDS Church) is NOT the philosophies of man mingled with scripture but the true teachings of God. (Received through Prophets in this new dispensation, beginning with Joseph Smith Jr. through other Prophets to T.S. Monson the current Prophet called of God.)

Regardless... what are believers to do, trust science or spirit? (I think that depends on the education, age, conditioning, IQ, EQ, disposition, and "entrapment" of the individual member; who can move through the belief curve as they move through THEIR learning curve. They can then satisfy their own conscience.)

Which is more trustworthy? (I think that depends some what upon categorizing. Head or heart matters? Experimental or experiential? In today's world of "proovens" I think Science, hands-down, would Trump Spirit. When we have medical, mechanical, psyche etc, needs there is no reason to seek out a Voodoo practitioner. We (most of us?) place our "faith" in accredited technicians.

There are certainly those in the LDS church who believe evolution is of Satan, the Earth is 6,000 years old, and the Noachain flood actually happened. (I 'think' many who might express that in church, would soften their stance in another setting. However you are correct about "those". I was surprised to learn that 'my' SP & RR believe the Adam's Rib Story...)

TD, I personally think there must be an expose`of what is taught, believed and practiced in Mormonism that is counter-culture and cult-like that can be mentally distorting, emotionally disturbing and familially destructive to some...

While this may seem an extreme position on my part, it is arrived at by observing the personal disturbances in a number of LDS individuals and families exasperated by their devotion to outlandish Mormon-truth that cannot be substantiated outside of the LDS realm of secret-sacredness.

Caveat emptor! "God" does not abide secrecy! In Religiosity there is only one character that deals in secrets and deceit, to divide the human family into fractious families forever involved in feigning righteousness...