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I have a question that I would like to ask the non-believers of the MDB community. I ask this because I genuinely want to know, and not out of some desire to start and atheist versus believers war. There have been enough of those here.

Forgive me for the long prelude to my question, for those intellects who think my posts are too lengthy. I have my reasons. However, I would appreciate any intellectual condescension to answer my question. :-)

A couple of months ago, there were certain comments made on this board about how believers acted when faced with terminal illness. In a nutshell it was said that believers do not have the capacity to deal with the reality of their situations, rather they resort to thoughts of the next life, or of how the doctors just had to be wrong, and as a result of their faith, they would be healed. Now I'm not saying that there are not people like that, but my experience has been that believers act in the same way that non-believers do when faced with something like chronic or terminal illness, that is to say, like any human being would. We go through the same range of emotions that non-believers do, we just (at times) come out with a different conclusion. But the same anger, pain, confusion, fear, doubt...it all shows up...and anyone faced with chronic or terminal illness who tells you that they haven't dealt with these things is a liar.

To be honest, the statements above hurt me given my situation, and that's one of the reasons why I don't post here much anymore. I don't have anything to contribute to the "Mormonism sucks" anthology, and I am not ashamed to say I am a person of faith. It bothers me when a complete stranger can say that because of what they view my beliefs to be (often off base completely) that I'm an elitist who not only ignores the wisdom of doctors, but general common sense as well with regards to my health. Personally, I love my doctors...one of whom is a Muslim who has taken care of me since day one, and who often speaks of the providence of God to me (when she's calling me at home to give a recommendation or report her findings...lovely woman!).

SO....my question....in a second. So "faith" is not a favorite word in the community of non-believers. I have said it once and I'll say it again, it's not the word that is the problem, it's the association that some atheists connect to it. Faith does not have to be solely something you place in the divine. Someone once told me that it wasn't faith if you put it in another human being, because if you were trusting in them, they'd probably proven trustworthy. But they can still fail you, so it's a leap of faith to trust them one more time...sorry but it is.

I want to know this: when faced with a large uncertainty such as a lengthy or even terminal illness (and I mean your own, not someone else's it's easy to comment when it's someone else's), where the outcome is not known or may be disma, how do you cope with "just what you see"? If you believe that nothing comes after this life (and I know not all non-believers think this way), and you are faced with a terminal diagnosis, how do you get through every day knowing you are counting down to nothing? Or does your immortality lie in the legacy you leave? Also, why can't believers think this way? Many do, you know.

I am not a religious fanatic, but more so now than ever before, I am grateful for my faith. I have not created a fantasy life (or after-life) to mask my daily reality, but my faith does serve me well. It gets me out of bed when I am able. It gets me through each hospital visit. It dries my tears and gives me the strength to carry my son. It quells my fears each time I have to take medications that it's gonna be hell to wean us both off of (oh, and the docs told me this was the best course of action for the nay-sayers who implied before that I'm some kind of crack mother). My faith helps me be strong when my family can't be strong for me anymore, and the tables have to turn for a while. It has taught me to look for the good in all things, which is actually there, instead of focusing on the larger dismal picture (which I would be doing if I just focused on "only what I can see").

So why is it a bad thing for me to have faith? Why does faith make a person weak? I have thought about this for weeks, and I have come to the conclusion that though there are many people out there who use their beliefs as both shield and weapon, religion is really a tool that people use to cope with the unanswered questions in life, and there is nothing wrong with that, because like it or not, even if you don't believe in anything...you still have the same unanswered questions that everyone else does. But you also have fewer options, as well.

I'd like to know what the non-believer alternative is when it comes to counting down one's days, or not knowing what comes next with one's health...or even the knowledge that the life you knew is gone, and you have to change everything just to survive. Since only the weak turn to God, faith, and the hopefulness that comes with these things, what do non-believers turn to when time or illness hits them personally?

I'd appreciate actual answers instead of soliloquies about my stupidity. Marg has already told us know dumb religious people are recently. We know. If you don't mind, if you are a non-believer and are gonna post, can you just answer the question? There is no right or wrong answer. I'm just curious. Thanks.

I don’t have a terminal illness and I wouldn’t call myself and atheist. However, I have not seen fit to believe in any of the gods that I have investigated.

In 2001 I was injured. It wasn’t a life threatening injury, but it did affect my ability to work and the side effects even made life extremely unbearable. So, hopefully I am not outside of the profile of posters’ opinions you were seeking.

At the time, I was a believing Mormon. My suffering brought me to the point that I began to ask the Mormon god “why?”. I looked around me at all the people who were not only Mormons, but arguably downright despicable human beings, who were able to live life to the fullest. I only wanted to be able to go to work and come home and play with my kids without the pain, illness, and depression. I was told over and over again the old line about these types of things simply being a test. But over time I could see that my situation was not making me stronger. It was destroying me in every facet of my existence. I truly felt that if god was testing me that he was pushing me beyond my limits.

After a couple years of the Book of Abraham, the Book of Mormon, polygamy, etc… I abandoned my faith in Joseph Smith (and hence the Mormon church). An examination of the Christian god and god in general led to my current position. I was finally able to make sense of my situation. It was not part of some grand scheme. If there was a god there, he was just ignoring me. Such a being doesn’t get much consideration from me. And my suffering was nothing compared to what some people go through on this rock. The explanation for what happened to me was nothing more complicated than “s*** happens”. And it does.

As for death, it doesn’t bother me that when I die the lights simply go out. I didn’t know that I didn’t exist before I came here. I won’t know the difference when I am gone. If it turns out there is something after this life, well… come what may. If anybody is waiting for us on the other side, they have got an awful lot of explaining to do. They have done about as good a job running this show as my two year old.

Now that would be funny. Finding out that god is a two year old.

Sorry, if this is not the post you were hoping for.

Hi Sam,

First of all, I’m sorry about what you are going through—I could only try to imagine.

For me, I think of mortality and the “counting down to nothing” as just one of another of the limits to my existence. Knowing that I won’t live forever is like knowing I won't visit everywhere--like knowing I’m not going to be able to spend next summer in Italy. Sure, it would be real nice—damn nice as a matter of fact. But it just isn’t going to happen. To me, accepting this reality is just a matter of being mature. Rather than fret about how sad it is that you didn’t exist a thousand years ago and won’t exist a thousand years from now, why not just feel thankful for whatever it is that you can feel thankful about now?

Flipping it around, what makes life so valuable is the fact that it is rare. If you could live forever, what motivation would you have to do anything? How special would be, say, a trip to Hawaii with your family if you had gone to Hawaii with them an infinite number of times in the past, and would experience it another infinite number of times with them in the future?

In the end of the day, I don’t have an issue with faith per se. If somebody believes something that is comforting, then that is fine. But on the other hand, faith can be an excuse or motivation for doing harm. In aggregate, it's a mixed bag. It seems to me that if we could figure out how to extract what is good and true from all religions and leave with the dross everything that is bad and false, the world would be better off.

Sam Harris wrote: I
I'd appreciate actual answers instead of soliloquies about my stupidity. Marg has already told us know dumb religious people are recently. We know. If you don't mind, if you are a non-believer and are gonna post, can you just answer the question? There is no right or wrong answer. I'm just curious. Thanks.

There is a difference between saying religious people are dumb versus what I said that 'all religious people hold idiotic religious beliefs and hence to some extent are all idiots for holding idiotic beliefs'. An intelligent individual can hold idiotic beliefs. It is absurd to think all beliefs are equally valid, equally rationally and shouldn't be evaluated or criticized. Also acknowledging an individual holds irrational and/or stupid beliefs is not a value judgment on the person's morals, nor is it an expression of like or dislike. And acknowledgment that any particular belief is completely irrational does not necessarily entail that belief will be a hindrance to the believer's life. Beliefs (religious or non) which are completely irrational can work positively on an individual's life and so atheists can and do use faith in a similar manner to what you describe. It is a matter of having a positive attitude.

Marg is a dogmatist.

I wouldn't take her too seriously.

Marg wrote: Beliefs (religious or non) which are completely irrational can work positively on an individual's life and so atheists can and do use faith in a similar manner to what you describe. It is a matter of having a positive attitude.

So.. expanding on this a bit ... as part of this positive attitude, would you say, that as an atheist, when you are reaching a low point, rather than praying to God, or taking comfort in God, you, for example, find comfort with your family and/or friends?

Sammy wrote:So why is it a bad thing for me to have faith? Why does faith make a person weak? I have thought about this for weeks, and I have come to the conclusion that though there are many people out there who use their beliefs as both shield and weapon, religion is really a tool that people use to cope with the unanswered questions in life, and there is nothing wrong with that, because like it or not, even if you don't believe in anything...you still have the same unanswered questions that everyone else does. But you also have fewer options, as well.

First of all, Sammy, you are one of the strongest individuals I know, emotionally and spiritually. So, no, I hardly think of you as a weak person. :)

You're going to make a fantastic mother, and you WILL get through this! *HUGS*

Balancing religion in one's life is a very individual thing. I think that whatever helps you, and gives you the strength to make it through the day, and make it through the hard times is the best individual road for you. Some people are fortunate enough to have a wonderful family support system. Some do not. I think that religion particularly aids people who don't have as many elements of positive support in their lives.

If your faith is what helps you recognize the beauty and strength that is in YOU, then it is the right path for you to follow. :)

*HUGS* from your crazy friend in NC.

How do you cope? Well, this is why marijuana should be legal.

Who Knows wrote:How do you cope? Well, this is why marijuana should be legal.

LOL!

liz3564 wrote:

Marg wrote: Beliefs (religious or non) which are completely irrational can work positively on an individual's life and so atheists can and do use faith in a similar manner to what you describe. It is a matter of having a positive attitude.

So.. expanding on this a bit ... as part of this positive attitude, would you say, that as an atheist, when you are reaching a low point, rather than praying to God, or taking comfort in God, you, for example, find comfort with your family and/or friends?

No I personally don't find comfort from family and/or friends to deal with life. What I was referring to as an example, my husband uses a phrase and it's an attitude he has. I think what he says (if I remember correctly) is "everything happens for a purpose and is there to serve you". So he will look for the positives in something negative. My attitude is different to his, I tend to accept whatever happens and don't dwell upon it. Really nothing terrible has ever happened to me. I also don't worry about things I know are beyond my control, I think it's a waste of time. I don't worry or even think about death, as a for instance. Whatever happens, happens.