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Why did he not show the plates to Emma's father Isaac Hale? If they were as real as you seem to believe the witnesses claim, then would they not have been as real to Isaac to physically see and feel?

Or was he in the wrong frame of mind?

Was it a requirement to be a believer in what Joseph was saying to be a witness of the plates??

So, uh, what happens if Droopy, Gazelam, Jason Bourne, Jersey Girl, JustMe, moksha, Ray A, or The Nehor decide to answer you?

Just wonderin'.

Wasn't it Isaac Hale who wanted nothing to do with the plates?

collegeterrace wrote:Why did he not show the plates to Emma's father Isaac Hale? If they were as real as you seem to believe the witnesses claim, then would they not have been as real to Isaac to physically see and feel?

Or was he in the wrong frame of mind?

Was it a requirement to be a believer in what Joseph was saying to be a witness of the plates??

Isaac Hale was not a believer in treasure stories. He would not have been convinced unless he could see and touch something real and tangible. Hence the problem. Joseph didn’t have anything tangible. All he had was made up stories. He picked eleven friends and family, all with some stake in the charade for his special witnesses.

Even Joseph’s stories were disconnected. Why have Moroni lug 80 pounds of gold all the way up from the first hill Cumorah in Central America to the second Cumorah in NY if Joseph didn’t even need them to translate? Not to mention the secret room in the hill with the stacks of other records and the sword of Laban. How did all that crap get all the way up to NY? Wheelbarrow?

sunstoned wrote:

collegeterrace wrote:Why did he not show the plates to Emma's father Isaac Hale? If they were as real as you seem to believe the witnesses claim, then would they not have been as real to Isaac to physically see and feel?

Or was he in the wrong frame of mind?

Was it a requirement to be a believer in what Joseph was saying to be a witness of the plates??

Isaac Hale was not a believer in treasure stories. He would not have been convinced unless he could see and touch something real and tangible. Hence the problem. Joseph didn’t have anything tangible. All he had was made up stories. He picked eleven friends and family, all with some stake in the charade for his special witnesses.

I read somewhere that all of the witnesses(11) were connected to Joseph either by blood or marriage.

The point I am asking the defenders who believe there were actual physical gold/golden plates and that the witnesses saw and handled them, is if these plates were indeed as real as they all claim, then Isaac Hale would have been the perfect witness, so why did he not get the chance?

sunstoned wrote:Even Joseph’s stories were disconnected. Why have Moroni lug 80 pounds of gold all the way up from the first hill Cumorah in Central America to the second Cumorah in NY if Joseph didn’t even need them to translate? Not to mention the secret room in the hill with the stacks of other records and the sword of Laban. How did all that crap get all the way up to NY? Wheelbarrow?

Yes, I know. Even DCP believes that there is an actual cave inside of a hill, yet to be found, called Cumorah, and full to the ceiling of gold/golden records. Heck, Farms even published an article on the yet to be found cave which marveled at the amount of gold/golden records that it must contain!

My oldest son always had questions during the first year of my so-called apostasy. One day we were at Home Depot. We had just discussed the weight of the supposed plates and how Joe tucked them into his side like a BYU receiver does with a football, and how old Joe was able to not only fend off the theives and attackers but able to leap over rocks and logs --all with this 80-150 lbs football sized block of metal, and with his bum leg not less!

So we pass a pallet with 50lbs bags of concrete mix. I had my son pick one up and let him know it was nearly half of the weight. I drew the picture for him in his mind,"Imagine running at full speed with that under your arm while jumping over trash cans and fighting off 5-10 people, not just the width of Home Depot but for at least a MILE!"

"Grandma and Grandpa actually believe that????!!!?" he exclaimed as he walked off muttering "wow, geeez, duh!"

LifeOnaPlate wrote:Wasn't it Isaac Hale who wanted nothing to do with the plates?

I think it was Joseph, who Isaac wanted his daughter Emma to have nothing to do with..

-Given the lying and cheating on his daughter by Joseph, ol' Isaac was a good judge of character.


And yes, nearly all the witnesses were related but not all - I don't think directly to Joseph Smith.

Hey now. Don't you dare tell someone not to believe in something just because you don't have all the information handy! The witnesses gained knowledge through ignorance.

Isn't it wonderful?

Isn't it marvelous?

antishock8 wrote:Hey now. Don't you dare tell someone not to believe in something just because you don't have all the information handy! The witnesses gained knowledge through ignorance.

Isn't it wonderful?

Isn't it marvelous?

It would be nice to see a list of the witnesses and how they were related to each other and to Joseph.

harmony wrote:

antishock8 wrote:Hey now. Don't you dare tell someone not to believe in something just because you don't have all the information handy! The witnesses gained knowledge through ignorance.

Isn't it wonderful?

Isn't it marvelous?

It would be nice to see a list of the witnesses and how they were related to each other and to Joseph.

Wiki:

The Eight Witnesses were all members of the Whitmer or Smith families: Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sr., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel Harrison Smith. Joseph Smith Sr. was Joseph's father, and Hyrum and Samuel H. Smith were his brothers. Christian, Jacob, Peter Jr. and John were David Whitmer's brothers, and Hiram Page was his brother-in-law. [2]

In 1838, the Whitmer family became estranged from Joseph Smith Jr. during a leadership struggle in Far West, Missouri and all were excommunicated, along with other dissenters, and fled Caldwell County after receiving an ultimatum from the Danites.[3] None of the Whitmers ever rejoined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Although none of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates, in 1838 a former Mormon leader, Stephen Burnett, said Martin Harris had told him that "the eight witnesses never saw [the plates] & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it."[4]

In addition to the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses, Mary Whitmer, who took care of the house
where much of the translation took place, said that the Angel Moroni showed her the plates as well.[5]

gramps wrote:Wiki:

The Eight Witnesses were all members of the Whitmer or Smith families: Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sr., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel Harrison Smith. Joseph Smith Sr. was Joseph's father, and Hyrum and Samuel H. Smith were his brothers. Christian, Jacob, Peter Jr. and John were David Whitmer's brothers, and Hiram Page was his brother-in-law. [2]

In 1838, the Whitmer family became estranged from Joseph Smith Jr. during a leadership struggle in Far West, Missouri and all were excommunicated, along with other dissenters, and fled Caldwell County after receiving an ultimatum from the Danites.[3] None of the Whitmers ever rejoined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Although none of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates, in 1838 a former Mormon leader, Stephen Burnett, said Martin Harris had told him that "the eight witnesses never saw [the plates] & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it."[4]

In addition to the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses, Mary Whitmer, who took care of the house
where much of the translation took place, said that the Angel Moroni showed her the plates as well.[5]

Thanks, gramps. The story isn't exactly a ringing endorsement, is it?