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I don't think anyone here claims to believe in magic (i.e. power over nature secured unconditionally by supernatural means). LDS petition. We're told never to demand. We don't have powers.

Yes, I think you're missing a HUGE 3rd bar where it apparently happens, but can't be explained away.

I was listening to the radio this morning and they were talking about EVP's. Sorry, but radio interference and baby monitors just don't cut it. I have no explanation.

The Nehor wrote:I don't think anyone here claims to believe in magic (i.e. power over nature secured unconditionally by supernatural means). LDS petition. We're told never to demand. We don't have powers.

Actually, they do.

LDS believe that if they pay tithing, they WILL NOT BURN. This is an unbreakable promise.

They also believe that if they pay tithing, the windows of heaven will open. This is an unbreakable promise.

They also believe that, without fail, if you sincerely pray to know of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, you will get an answer. This is an unbreakable promise.

I could go on.

Scottie wrote:

The Nehor wrote:I don't think anyone here claims to believe in magic (i.e. power over nature secured unconditionally by supernatural means). LDS petition. We're told never to demand. We don't have powers.

Actually, they do.

LDS believe that if they pay tithing, they WILL NOT BURN. This is an unbreakable promise.

They also believe that if they pay tithing, the windows of heaven will open. This is an unbreakable promise.

They also believe that, without fail, if you sincerely pray to know of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, you will get an answer. This is an unbreakable promise.

I could go on.

I think there is a difference. Magic purports to give you power to have your will enacted. We are promised that if we do certain things God will enact his will in his own way and in his own time to do what he wills and promises. This is nothing like making a claim that I HAVE supernatural powers. For more on this I recommend C.S. Lewis's essay, "The Efficacy of Prayer" where he explains why such things are different then magic or machinery.

The Nehor wrote:I don't think anyone here claims to believe in magic (i.e. power over nature secured unconditionally by supernatural means). LDS petition. We're told never to demand. We don't have powers.

Mormons claim to have the power to heal. They also claim that if you pay tithing first, you will be able to pay the rest of your bills regardless of the actual math. That is magic--at least there is no difference in my mind.

John Larsen wrote:

The Nehor wrote:I don't think anyone here claims to believe in magic (i.e. power over nature secured unconditionally by supernatural means). LDS petition. We're told never to demand. We don't have powers.

Mormons claim to have the power to heal. They also claim that if you pay tithing first, you will be able to pay the rest of your bills regardless of the actual math. That is magic--at least there is no difference in my mind.

No, we claim to be instruments in the hand of God to use his power if he wants us to to heal. I've heard that tithing claim. I've never heard it from anyone with keys to declare doctrine. I declare it a myth. It might happen, it might not. It has happened for me and sometimes it has not. I know tithing payers (who are idiots with the rest of their money) who are broke.

Scottie wrote:Yes, I think you're missing a HUGE 3rd bar where it apparently happens, but can't be explained away.

I was listening to the radio this morning and they were talking about EVP's. Sorry, but radio interference and baby monitors just don't cut it. I have no explanation.

All of the signals out there and this one bothers you? You combine all the possible sources of transmission interference mixed with human beings hyper-pattern matching bias and you have no problem explaining this. It definitely doesn't warrant a third bar.

The other problem is with your phrase "apparently happens" because human beings have a huge problem with "apparently". It is the weak spot in our cognition and real progress in learning has only been made when we systematically ignore the apparent.

The Nehor wrote:No, we claim to be instruments in the hand of God to use his power if he wants us to to heal. I've heard that tithing claim. I've never heard it from anyone with keys to declare doctrine. I declare it a myth. It might happen, it might not. It has happened for me and sometimes it has not. I know tithing payers (who are idiots with the rest of their money) who are broke.

How is that any different than a spell or an incantation. I don't think anyone who believes in magic believes that they have power to control nature by fiat. It is by manipulation of symbols in the form of spells, prayers, proxies or other processes that cause events to happen. Magic is always what the other guys do.

Look up tithing in the LDS database of conference talks and you will see plenty of supernatural claims about tithing.

I see lots of supernatural claims wherever I turn in the church. I've made a few myself. I still see the difference. We're told that signs follow those who believe and they do. They have not found some way to force their will onto the Universe though. They simply accept gifts. Most don't really expect them.