Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

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_beastie
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Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _beastie »

Massacre at Mountain Meadows Review

First, I recognize that this must have been an incredibly difficult book for believers to write, and for believers to read, even more so than it is for nonbelievers to read. It is a heart-wrenching, ugly story, and the evidence obviously identifies the perpetrators as men who believed in the LDS church, believed in being obedient to its leaders, and believed they were doing the will of God. No matter how else a believer tries to reconcile this information, it must be troubling on a certain level, because it raises questions, once again, about the effect of and reliability of the spirit in terms of enlightening the faithful, and providing clear counsel via that same spirit.

I also believe that this book, along with Rough Rolling Stone (which I have not read, so I’m using that example based on the comments of others), marks a turning point in how LDS faithful feel permitted to approach history without running afoul of the brethren. Personally, I am convinced that this move away from adoring, whitewashed history was likely heavily influenced by the advent of the information age of the internet. Back when I joined the LDS church in1976, believers who were familiar with controversial issues could be fairly confident that potential converts, or members, would likely not be exposed to these same issues. Therefore, these issues could safely be ignored. That is no longer the case. I am quite certain that I would never have joined the LDS church had I had access to the internet, for example. Critics have long proposed that the church needs to confront these issues more openly, if for no other reason than to avoid the anger that many believers experience when discovering these things on their own, and feeling as if the church hid or ignored the information.

Having said that, I am personally persuaded that the conflict of interest discussed in depth in the previous thread did, indeed, have a notable impact on this work. I am not saying that this was deliberate on anyone’s part, but that does not negate its effect.

In the years I’ve discussed Mormonism with defenders of the faith on the internet, I’ve noticed that they usually draw a line beyond which they simply cannot go. This is particular noticeable when the reliability of revelation is discussed. Believers are quite willing to concede that revelation is not an entirely consistent or reliable instrument, and that this is the reason why prophets, and others, sometimes believe their ideas originated with God when they really originated in their own minds or cultures. If one follows this proposal to its logical conclusion, one would have to concede that the reality of ambiguous, or flawed, “revelation” means that one could reasonably question all revelations, even those that address the very basic foundational claims of the LDS church. However, this is a line that believers cannot go beyond. It is too threatening to preserving faith.

I believe that the new line that believers cannot cross, in regards to Mountain Meadows Massacre, is the possible involvement of Brigham Young. As DCP stated on the previous thread, if BY were found to be directly involved in ordering the massacre, that would call his prophet-hood into question. Reality is likely a bit more complicated than that. I think it is more likely that defenders of the faith would find someway to reconcile even this with maintaining faith in the church. We’ve seen this in the past. Once upon a time, some defenders of the faith claimed that if solid information were discovered that Joseph Smith had been taken to trial for money-digging, that would be the death-knoll for LDS truth claims. Yet that did not occur. I would imagine that, prior to the uncovering of the Book of Abraham papyri, many defenders of the faith would have thought that actually discovering the papyri and discovering they did not contain the text of the Book of Abraham would be a death-knoll for LDS truth claims. And yet it was not. True Believers can literally reconcile any information. But, of course, discovering that BY ordered the massacre would cause problems for believers, and there would be some who would lose faith. Additionally, ordering a massacre of innocents is far more damning than, say, Joseph Smith marrying a fourteen year old girl, so I don’t want to minimize the effect this could have. The fact that a practiced apologist such as DCP thinks that it would call his prophet-hood into question is significant.

After reading the book, I am personally convinced that the authors started their work with the already formed firm belief that BY did not order the massacre, because they believe in the church, and do not believe a prophet could engage in such an act. I think this a-priori belief created a skewed lens through which they evaluated evidence. It created the tendency to “notice” information that could absolve BY while not noticing information that could also condemn him. I will demonstrate my point in examples, starting with the two I offered earlier as “teasers”.

1. Massacre, page 98

One extended passage in the August 16 sermon was clearly meant for Washington, possibly in hopes of bringing about a settlement. “I…wish to say to all Gentiles,” Young told non-Mormons in the congregation, to “send word to your friends that they must stop crossing this continent to Calafornia for the indians will kill them.” He wanted Washington to know what it would lose by alienating the Mormons. The Mormon leader was raising the stakes by threatening the flow of goods and people across the middle of the continent. But there was also the practical reality that if the Saints fled to the mountains to fight a guerilla war, they could no longer mediate between emigrants and Indians. “This people have always done good to the travelers,” Young insisted. “They have kept the Indians from injuring them and have done all in their power to save the lives of men, women and children, but all this will cease to be, if our enemies commence war on us.”


This implies that the reason the Indians would start attacking emigrants would be due to the absence of the intervening Mormons, who would have fled. Yet look at the passage omitted in Massacre, but included by Bagley:

“If the United States send their army here and war commences, the travel must stop; your trains must not cross this continent back and forth. To accomplish this I need only say a word to the [tribes], for the Indians will use them up unless I continually strive to restrain them. I will say no more to the Indians, let them alone, but do as you please. And what is that? It is to use them up; and they will do it.” (page 91)


The bolded words clearly convey that BY was not just referring to what would happen of the Mormons were no longer around to protect emigrants, due to having fled from the feds, but he was referring to actively encouraging the Indians to attack emigrant trains.

This citation also makes clear that BY wasn’t just talking about the military when he referred to the risk of Indian attack, but was referring to civilian emigrants.


2. Another one, in regards to the involvement of George A Smith and Brigham Young. Here's the quote from Massacre, page 70:

In after years Smith’s journey to southern Utah became a matter of controversy, with some interpreting his sermons and even the places he stopped as a deliberate prelude to the Mountain Meadows Massacre less than a month later. John D. Lee’s several posthumously published “confessions” – which appeared two decades after the tour – said that while the party was passing through the Santa Clara canyon, Smith asked, “Brother Lee, what do you think the brethren would do if a company of emigrants should come down through here making threats? Don’t you think they would pitch into them?”

“They certainly would,” Lee replied, to which Smith answered, “I asked Isaac (meaning Haight) the same question, and he answered me just as you do.

Several months after the first publication of the this conversation, another version of Lee’s confessions appeared under the title Mormonism Unveiled. It made the charge against Smith even stronger. “I have always believed, since that day, that General George A. Smith was then visiting Southern Utah to prepare the people for the work of exterminating Captain Fancher’s train of emigrants,” the book said, “and I now believe he was sent for that purpose by the direct command of Brigham Young.” The passage would be used by some writers as key evidence for saying that Smith and Young had planned the massacre.

These statements, however, would have required remarkable prescience on Smith’s part. Even if he knew which trains would take the northern or southern routes to California, it is doubtful he knew their behavior on the road would include making threats against the southern Utah people. Moreover, Lee’s attorney and editor, William W. Bishop, almost certainly reworked Lee’s “confessions” in Mormonism Unveiled to improve its sales, including the charges against Smith and Young. Bishop had a motive before making these changes as his legal fees were tied to the book’s royalties.

Just moments before Lee’s execution – and after he had supposedly written the words in Mormonism Unveiled – Lee talked with a reporter from the then unabashedly anti-Mormon Salt Lake Tribune. The reporter pressed Lee to know what Smith had said to him before the massacre.

“Did he preach hostile to the emigrants?” the reporter asked.

“He was visiting all the settlements and preaching against the emigrants,” Lee said. Then referring to the people killed at Mountain Meadows, he added, “I don’t know that he meant those particular emigrants.” This – Lee’s final statement on the subject – makes it unlikely that he made the statement attributed to him in Mormonism Unveiled, especially since he had been offered his life by prosecutors if he would just charge Smith and Young with ordering the massacre. He went to his death instead.


Here's the passage discussing the same event from Bagley. I have highlighted the portion omitted in Massacre that I find pertinent, page 86:

Smith claimed that he enjoyed his “glorious interview” with the natives of the desert, but Lee found the large numbers of Paiutes that gathered around the Mormons impudent. As Lee translated, the apostle told them the Americans were their enemies and the enemies of the Mormons too. If the Indians helped to fight their mutual adversary, the Saints “would always keep them from want and sickness and give them guns and ammunition to hunt and kill game with, and would also help the Indians against their enemies when they went into war.” This pleased them, Lee recalled, “and they agreed to all that [he] asked them to do.”

During their visit to the Tonaquints, Lee thought Smith was a little fearful of the Indians. Lee hitched up quickly and left. “Those are savage looking fellows,” Smith said after a mile or so. “I think they would make it lively for an emigrant train if one should come this way.” Lee said the Paiutes would attack any train. Smith went into a deep study and said, “Suppose an emigrant train should come along through this southern country, making threats against our people and bragging of the part they took in helping to kill our Prophets, what do you think the brethren would do with them? Would they be permitted to go their way, or would the brethren pitch in and give them a good drubbing?” Lee said the brethren were under the influence of the Reformation and were still red-hot for the gospel. Any train would be attacked and probably destroyed. “I am sure they would be wiped out if they had been making threats against our people.”

Smith seemed delighted with Lee’s answer and rephrased the question, “Do you really believe the brethren would make it lively for such a train?” Lee said they would, and he warned that unless Smith wanted the Saints to attack every train passing through the south, Brigham Young should send direct orders to Dame and Haight to let them pass. The people, Lee said, were bitter, full of zeal, and “anxious to avenge the blood of the Prophets.” Smith said he had asked Haight the same question, and Haight gave the same answer. Smith thought the Paiutes, “with the advantage they had of the rocks, could use up a large company of emigrants, or make it very hot for them.” Lee again warned that if Young wanted emigrants companies to pass unmolested, he must give Dame and Haight explicit instructions “for if they are not ordered otherwise, they will use them up by the help of the Indians.” The conversation convinced Lee that Smith expected every emigrant passing through the territory to be killed. I thought it was his mission to prepare the people for the bloody work,” Lee wrote.

Federal investigators were later convinced Brigham Young sent letters south “authorizing, if not commanding,” the destruction of the Fancher train, but it is unlikely Young would commit such an order to writing. Lee’s tale of his ambiguous conversations with Smith on the Santa Clara may best reflect what actually happened. If Smith gave orders to kill the emigrants, they may have been no more explicit than to “use them up” or “give them a good drubbing.” Mormon leaders often spoke in code words whose meaning was clear only to insiders. One of Young’s favorite phrases, “A word to the wise is sufficient,” meant, “Don’t make me spell it out.” This ambiguity had many advantages; it sheltered Mormon leaders from accountability and shifted responsibility from top leaders to local authorities. But orders couched in such enigmatic terms were easily misinterpreted, a serious problem given the volatile atmosphere and the slow pace of communications in Utah Territory.

Lee arrived at his own conclusion: “I have always believed, since that day, that General George A. Smith was then visiting Southern Utah to prepare the people for the work of exterminating Captain Fancher’s train of emigrant, and I now believe he was sent for that purpose by the direct command of Brigham Young.”


This passage is extremely important, due to the fact that it demonstrates how the information in Mormonism Unveiled can be reconciled with Lee’s statement at his execution. Did Young directly order the massacre of the Fancher train, in specific??? Maybe not. But Lee told Smith that he was interpreting his words to mean that they should “molest” every emigrant company unless otherwise directed. So the end effect is the same. He didn’t need to order the massacre of that specific train. All trains were going to be attacked, unless specifically notified otherwise.

Now, perhaps the authors will choose not to trust anything Lee says about the matter. But they are content to refer to his words when they believe those words absolve Brigham Young, so to omit the information that demonstrates how his words at execution were consistent with Mormonism Unveiled is extremely misleading.

Again, this doesn’t have to be a deliberate, calculated act of omission. Studies demonstrate that the human mind helpfully “edits out” information that is too threatening to recognize, so they could have not “seen” the importance of the omitted section at all. In fact, I trust that some defenders of the faith will also not be able to see the importance of the omitted section, as well. I also trust it’s pretty clear to less emotionally invested folks.

3. July 23 picnic

Here’s how the authors summarized Brigham Young’s statements at the July 23 picnic, from page 35 of Massacre:

By that night, the Latter-day Saints were dancing, fishing, and enjoying the alpine beauty. At twilight, Young spoke to his guests. He said “he had things on his mind” that he had never told them. “These are the secret chambers of the mountains…calculated to ward off the traveller on the outside from coming down in here.” If only the Mormon people “would do right,” he promised, their enemies would never drive them from their mountain valleys. At the end of the program, Heber C. Kimball, one of Young’s counselors, “offered a prayer of thanksgiving unto God for his goodness to his people, prayed for Israel and Israel’s enemies, and renewedly dedicated and consecrated unto God the ground” where the Saints were camped.

The next day, July 24, the Saints’ celebration included patriotic speeches and three cannon salutes in honor of the people’s rights, their independence, and their leaders. Repeatedly, the partygoers also offered “three groans” for the state of Missouri. The Mormons had not lost their sense of humor, but neither had they lost their memory of the suffering they experienced in that state. Still later the territorial militia drilled, including a cohort of teenagers. Militia drills were a common part of public celebrations in mid-nineteenth-century America.


Here’s a passage from Bagley describing the picnic, page 80:

The messengers left Salt Lake the next morning at 4:45 for Big Cottonwood Canyon. At noon they rode into the vast camp of twenty-five hundred selected Saints assembled to celebrate Pioneer Day. A bugle summoned the crowd at sunset, and their leaders addressed them from an eminence at the center of the campground. Their exact remarks do not survive, but according to the Deseret News, a “scene of the maddest confusion” followed. Brigham Young told the crowd “they constituted henceforth a free and independent state, to be known no longer as Utah, but by their own Mormon name of Deseret.” Kimball “called on the people to adhere to Brigham, as their prophet, seer, revelator, priest, governor, and king.”

Brigham Young often recalled that on reaching the Salt Lake Valley on July 24, 1847, he had said, “If the people of the United States will let us alone for ten years, we will ask no odds of them.” He did not think about it again until ten years later, when he learned that Buchanan was sending troops to Utah. Now he predicted that the army would be followed by “priests, politicians, speculators, whoremongers, and every mean, filthy character that could be raked up [to] kill off the ‘Mormons.’” The prophet’s patience was at an end: “We have borne enough of their oppression and hellish abuse, and we will not ear any more of it.. In the name of Israel’s God, we ask no odds of them.”


Paints quite a different picture, doesn’t it? The people were exhorted to follow BY as their “king”, and then BY announced that the people who would follow the army would be hellish people committed to killing Mormons. Yet this information didn’t make it into Massacre.

4. Eleanor Pratt’s recounting of Parley’s murder

First, I can’t talk about the Pratt murder without mentioning the irony of the fact that he was killed by a husband who was angry about Parley taking his wife. According to Bagley, George A. Smith’s first case as a lawyer was to defend Howard Egan for killing a man who had seduced his wife. From page 41:

Smith argued that “If a law is to be in force upon us, it must be plain and simple to the understanding, and applicable to our situation.” He reasoned that “in this territory it is a principle of mountain common law, that no man can seduce the wife of another without endangering his own life.”


Back to my primary point, which is what the two authors chose to tell us about the widow’s recounting of the murder. Both authors accept that Eleanor was rushed back to SL and arrived during the time frame of the picnic. This is how it is summarized in Massacre, page 37, my emphasis:

Eleanor McLean Pratt returned to Salt Lake City with them, still fleeing from Hector McLean, who remained intent on locking her in an insane asylum. Eleanor was eager to provide vivid details of Parley’s assassination, but the accounts of the Silver Lake picnic would not mention her, perhaps because she didn’t attend or because Parley’s death had been known in Utah for more than a month. It was old news.


Compare this to Bagley, page 81:

By Sunday, July 26, the Mormon leaders were preaching in Salt Lake. Kimball caught the defiant mood of the people: “Send 2,500 troops here, our brethren, to make a desolation of this people! God Almighty helping me, I will fight until there is not a drop of blood in my veins. Good God! I have wives enough to whip out the United States, for they will whip themselves.” Along with his fellow apostles, Wilford Woodruff attended a prayer meeting in the evening at Young’s “Upper Room”. “Presidet Young expressed his feelings in plainness Concerning our Enemies.” The meeting was apparently restricted to males, but they read Elanor Pratt’s impassioned letter describing her husband’s murder and discussed their future plans. In his journal Brigham Young wrote, “We prayed for our enemies.”

Woodruff “got an account of the death and burial of Elder P. P. Pratt” from Pratt’s widow on August 1. The long narrative expressed her bitterness against Arkansas and her certainty that Parley Pratt’s innocent blood must be avenged. A lawyer in Van Buren had asked her “whether the Mormons would not avenge this man’s blood, even if the Court did nothing.” She assured him, “if the murderers can feel secure in any nation under heaven or upon any island of the sea they are welcome to feel so. One thing I know McLean has to die and go to hell for what he has done, and every man who assisted him in this deed.”


So was Pratt’s death really “old news”? by the way, BY mentioned Parley’s death in his August 16 sermon, as well, which I will address later.

Speaking of Eleanor Pratt, another serious omission in Massacre can be found in Bagley’s book, on page 98:

On August 1 Apostle Wilford Woodruff had called on “Eleanor Pratt & got an account of the death & burial of Elder P. P. Pratt. Years later Charles Wandell, an embittered Mormon apostate, reported that when the Fancher train passed though Salt Lake, the widow Pratt “recognized one or more of the party as having been present at the death of Pratt.”


Now, whether or not the authors of Massacre would choose to give any credence to the words of an embittered apostate, is it really fair and thorough to completely omit any reference to this charge?

I’m going to post this in installments. It’s just too long for one post, so I’ll post segments as I finish.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Ray A

Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _Ray A »

Just going on this review, it seems to me that Bagley's book and Massacre are completely at odds on important points.

I don't understand this portion of Massacre, nor Lee's apparent contradiction:

Just moments before Lee’s execution – and after he had supposedly written the words in Mormonism Unveiled – Lee talked with a reporter from the then unabashedly anti-Mormon Salt Lake Tribune. The reporter pressed Lee to know what Smith had said to him before the massacre.

“Did he preach hostile to the emigrants?” the reporter asked.

“He was visiting all the settlements and preaching against the emigrants,” Lee said. Then referring to the people killed at Mountain Meadows, he added, “I don’t know that he meant those particular emigrants.” (My emphasis)


Then from Bagley:

Lee said the brethren were under the influence of the Reformation and were still red-hot for the gospel. Any train would be attacked and probably destroyed. “I am sure they would be wiped out if they had been making threats against our people.”

Smith seemed delighted with Lee’s answer and rephrased the question, “Do you really believe the brethren would make it lively for such a train?” Lee said they would, and he warned that unless Smith wanted the Saints to attack every train passing through the south, Brigham Young should send direct orders to Dame and Haight to let them pass. The people, Lee said, were bitter, full of zeal, and “anxious to avenge the blood of the Prophets.” Smith said he had asked Haight the same question, and Haight gave the same answer. Smith thought the Paiutes, “with the advantage they had of the rocks, could use up a large company of emigrants, or make it very hot for them.” Lee again warned that if Young wanted emigrants companies to pass unmolested, he must give Dame and Haight explicit instructions “for if they are not ordered otherwise, they will use them up by the help of the Indians.” The conversation convinced Lee that Smith expected every emigrant passing through the territory to be killed. I thought it was his mission to prepare the people for the bloody work,” Lee wrote.


Yet Lee is reported (by the Tribune) as saying before his execution:

“I don’t know that he meant those particular emigrants.”???
_beastie
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _beastie »

Here's how I understand it.

Let's say that Billy Bob owns a restaurant, and has ordered his employee, JimBo, to not serve any African Americans in the restaurant. The next day, Barack Obama walks in, and is refused service. In the ensuing brouhaha, JimBo explains that while Billy Bob told him to not serve African Americans in general, he doesn't know if Billy Bob had Barack Obama in mind in particular.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_TAK
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _TAK »

Exactly..
There is this assumption by some that the Fancher train was targeted but thay may not be the case.. Other trains were attacked too and cattle taken on both the north and south trails which was goes along with BY's instruction to the Indians to take American cattle.
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


_________________
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _Pokatator »

It seems that the "Oath of Vengeance" was alive and doing well. Was there any mention of the oath in the book?
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
bcspace
_solomarineris
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _solomarineris »

"beastie"]
After reading the book, I am personally convinced that the authors started their work with the already formed firm belief that BY did not order the massacre, because they believe in the church, and do not believe a prophet could engage in such an act.


Hey,
isn't this redundant?
Wasn't Bagley & other authors influenced the same way?

Frankly, I did not waste my time to read any MMM books, after reading juanita Brooks' masterpiece.
Her book will let you form reasonable conclusions.
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

Thank you, Beastie, for providing us with your thoughts. In addition, I appreciate the time it must've taken to transcribe all those paragraphs from the book.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_NorthboundZax
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _NorthboundZax »

Beastie wrote:I also believe that this book, along with Rough Rolling Stone (which I have not read, so I’m using that example based on the comments of others), marks a turning point in how LDS faithful feel permitted to approach history without running afoul of the brethren.


Personally, I think this is not so much a turning point in enlightenment from the brethren recognizing the value of more accurate history, but simply recognizing a loss of control of message.

For the last several decades the church had a virtual monopoly on the Joseph Smith story and the MMM - with the exceptions of No Man and Juanita Brooks' book that could largely be deflected. For whatever reasons these stories found new footing and the church found itself losing control over those messages. The only really viable response to regain that control is to find new champions that could somehow tell the fuller and more accurate stories in a manner that one could still say 'the church its true' at the end. The price of that is to give Bushman, Turley, Leonard and others as much latitude as they need and trust that they can deliver with testimony despite it all. For all intents and purposes, I think they have succeeded in those goals about as well as possible.
_beastie
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _beastie »

One more installment before I respond to some specific posts.

5. Brigham Young’s August 16 sermon

I already partially addressed this point in number 1 above, the omission of the critical words “I need only to say a word to the tribes, for the Indians will use them up unless I continually strive to restrain them.” But I also have a larger point to make regarding the August 16 meeting. While the authors were willing, at times, to actually provide quotations inciting violence from some people, they were quite restrained in regards to offering any direct quotations from Brigham Young himself. They do concede that BY engaged in violent rhetoric, but a reader will not get a full sense of that violent rhetoric with direct quotations, when available.

Here is what Massacre offered as a summary of the August 16 sermon, beginning on page 98:

But it was not until the following Sunday, August 16, that Young gave his clearest reaction to the events that had taken place in northern Utah.

His address began with the emotional kindling of the Mormons’ past persecution and the threat of war. He also spoke publicly for the first time of his military strategy of guerrilla fighting. He then announced a new Indian policy. If the army comes and commences war on the Saints, he declared, “I will tell you honestly, and plainly, and in all good feeling that I will not old the Indians still while the emigrants shoot them, as they have hitherto done, but I will say to them [the Indians], go and do as you please.” The old policy of mediating between emigrants and Indians had almost led to an Indian war just at the time when Young was trying to curry favor with the native peoples for the coming conflict. Something else may have kindled Young’s anger. He had been a federal Indian superintendent for years, and yet Washington had failed to reimburse him and his people fully for keeping peace with the Indians; the arrears by 1857 had reached more than $30,000 – a large sum for the time.


I already noted the fact that the authors omit the fact that BY wasn’t just talking about the Indians taking action due to the LDS no longer acting as mediators – he was talking about actively “saying the word” to the tribes. There will be more on that later. In regards to the money the government owed – perhaps the LDS recouped some of that cost in enjoying the booty of the massacre.

Continuing from Massacre, page 99:

For three weeks, the emotions of the Saints had been building. During his speech when Young asked if they were willing to “lay waste and desolate every thing behind you” and flee to the mountains, there was an emotional outburst. Members of the congregation raised both hands in the air and waved and clapped their assent. “We declared with uplifted hands that we would from this time fourth defend ourselves from any further oppression from the Gentiles[,] God being our helper, “ said one of the settlers who was present. One f the clerks, unsure a mere transcript could capture the moment, penned into his record, “The feeling that prevailed in the meeting cannot be described.”

Young’s sermon also chastened non-Mormon merchants in the audience who, Young believed, were part of the clique working against his people in Washington. Several days later, keying off Young’s remarks, local zealots forced their way into gentile stores to seize lead, clothes, and other items. When Young learned what had been done, he rebuked the men and took steps to safeguard the merchants’ property. “A mean course of conduct to the Gentiles would result in fighting [against] the Saints,” he said. Two of the men involved in the raid were Richard Pettit and Joseph Thompson, who had earlier participated in the beating of C.G. Landon.

Young’s August 16 address had softer themes, too, as he urged his people to build up God’s kingdom and fill the earth with peace. Some passages were heartfelt soliloquy. “How my soul longed to see the time when the sufferings of the people will cease,” he said. “how my soul has been pained while I have been in the world, to see the people poor, bound down and suffering for food and raiment, to see them imprisoned innocently and bound down by priestcraft. How my soul has desired to see the fetters broken asunder.” The Mormon mission of “reveolutionising” the world must go forward, he said.

But it was Young’s wartime preaching that stood out. The raids on the gentile merchants showed how his pulpit language – and the threat of war – could have unexpected consequences. Perhaps Young accepted these risks as a necessary part of war, but he seemed uneasy by the decisions he was making. “I wish to meet all men at the judgment Bar of God without any to fear me or accuse me of a wrong action,” he told his diary, several days after his August 16 address. Before any fighting was to be done, he wanted to give his “enemies far warning.” A week later, Young reportedly sent a letter to Harney telling the US commander that he and the Mormons did “not wish to fight anybody” – but if the army continued its advance the soldiers should expect resistance.”


Now, it’s one thing to say “Young’s wartime preaching stood out.” But don’t readers need to actually see some of that wartime preaching to judge for themselves?

Bagley provided it beginning on page 88:

In the midst of the crisis of 1857, Brigham Young told an audience that his printed remarks “often omit the sharp words, though they are perfectly understood and applicable here.” Heber Kimball said Young’s published sermons contained “buttermilk and catnip tea” in place of remarks that might offend “the weak-stomached world.” As provocative as the rhetoric in the Deseret News appears today, Young’s speech was far more inflammatory than his printed sermons.

George D. Watt’s manuscript minutes of Brigham Young’s August 16, 1857, discourse revel the contrast between his actual words and the later, sanitized versions – and how profoundly the powerful harangues moved his audience. This sermon was an impassioned statement of the Mormons’ brief against the government and their plans to deal with the army. Young also announced a dramatic change in his policy towards outsiders. Since the gold rush of 1849 the Saints had welcomed emigrant trains, and usually the relationship had proved mutually beneficial. Emigrants brought much-needed goods and cash to the remote settlements, where travelers could resupply and trade worn-out stock for fresh animals. Governor Young issued proclamations to encourage emigrants to stop at Salt Lake, and the visitors often praised Mormon hospitality. With war clouds darkening the horizon, all that was about to end.

“I hope that I may say to the people the things that the Lord would say,” Young began that August morning. “I hope that what I do say will be in truth and in righteousness – dictated by the Holy Ghost. “There was much excitement in the regions of darkness, the prophet told his congregation. Their ten years’ peace in the mountains was the longest rest the Saints had ever enjoyed. The government had now “come out, not openly and boldly, but underhandedly, and sneekingly, raskaly – in the form of a mob – again to pour their intolerant persecution upon this people and break them up, and ruin them – to destroy and kill them.” He held the United States responsible for the deaths of thousands of Saints. Joseph and Hyrum Smith had been murdered while under the protection of the state of Illinois, and the blood of the prophets continued to flow, for “they [had] killed Parley lately.” The prophet vowed to lift his sword and slay those who wished to destroy his people, a promise the congregation greeted with “a unanimous shout, ‘Amen.’”

“I am at the defiance of all hell [and] Governments, but especially ours,” Young said. Although the Mormon people loved the Constitution, the corrupt government dealt unfairly with them: “They turn good into evil, and they make light darkness….Every Mobocratic spirit and institution, every violation of the Constitution, they pass over it as nothing, and raise a force to come and slay all the Latterdaysaints, men, women, and children.” The advancing army carried sealed orders to “decoy away every man and woman” and “use up the leaders, break up their organization, disperse the people, and call in [the] Gentile brethren and break up the Mormon kingdom.”


Note the bolded words about Pratt's murder demonstrates that the topic was not "old news".

in my opinion, reading BY’s actual words, particularly his frequent use of the word “mob”, helps set the background for MMM. This is information that Massacre does not provide. However, the authors do provide another clue that alert readers can link back to this speech, although they do not help us do so. On page 108, in Massacre, in reference to a conflict that occurred between an emigrant train and Provo leaders:

The wartime atmosphere and competition for grass and water combined to create disputes. One took place before the second week of August in Provo, some fifty miles south of Salt Lake City. When local lawman Lyman Woods found emigrant cattle grazing on the red top and timothy grass that were the town’s winter range, he asked the emigrants to move and offered to guide them to another campsite. According to Woods the company’s captain retorted, “This is Uncle Sam’s grass. We are his boys. We have better claim on it than a bunch of rebel Mormons.”

The US government had not yet established a land office in Utah, which meant that technically the settlers did not have title to the range. But everyone understood squatters rights – including the government, which typically came down on the side of residents in land disputes. Both sides felt justified in their positions. The emigrants depended on grass to feed their cattle, and if the cattle suffered, so might dreams of profit in California. The grass was also vital to the Mormons, whose thin herds were just beginning to thrive after the drought.

Woods gave the emigrants one hour to move and called out the local “minute men”. Whether the Mormons entrenched and barricaded themselves into a firing line, as Woods later claimed, or merely conducted a militia muster nearby, the show of force had its intended effect. Five minutes before Wood’s deadline expired, the emigrants began packing up. “They wisely concluded that even if they won the battle,” Woods later boasted, “the survivors would never be able to move to the north, or run the gauntlet of a Lexington line of riflemen stretching 200 miles to the southern border.” Stake president Snow said in August 9 church services, “I was pleased with the Military yesterday. It was the greatest turn out that I ever saw.”

Provo leaders’ minds were fixed on the approaching army. Failing to distinguish between the army and outsiders in general, one told his congregation “that the Gentiles are coming here to hang all our leaders and to make Eunichs of the rest.” If the Saints ever did “come in contact with Uncle Sam,” he predicted, they would discover “that the Lord has got a Battle axe that the Gentiles does not dream o[f]” – a reference to Indians whose favor the Mormons were trying to gain. Snow concluded, “Uncle Sam is determined to make us gain our independence as did the people of the US from Great Briton.”


The Massacre authors do provide us with evidence that some Mormons did not distinguish between the army and emigrants, but just lumped them all into “Gentiles” seeking to destroy them. They did not provide us with BY’s exact words talking about mobs and death. Perhaps the reason some Mormons did not make this distinction was due to the fact that BY did not always seem to make the distinction, either.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _beastie »

Exactly..
There is this assumption by some that the Fancher train was targeted but thay may not be the case.. Other trains were attacked too and cattle taken on both the north and south trails which was goes along with BY's instruction to the Indians to take American cattle.


Yes. Morally and probably legally speaking, if directions were given to attack trains in general, then the culpability is still present, even if the Fancher train was not specifically named.

It seems that the "Oath of Vengeance" was alive and doing well. Was there any mention of the oath in the book?


Yes, although not in detail. I’m going to address that in the next installment.

Hey,
isn't this redundant?
Wasn't Bagley & other authors influenced the same way?

Frankly, I did not waste my time to read any MMM books, after reading juanita Brooks' masterpiece.
Her book will let you form reasonable conclusions.


Yes, Bagley was accused of the exact same “sin” with his book, ie, that he had already determined BY’s guilt, and this bias created another skewed lens. He denies this charge, as likely the authors of this book would deny their own pre-existing conclusion. Critics have charged that Bagley’s bias led him to misinterpret some information (such as the meeting with Indian leaders), and that may well be so. However, that does not change the reality of the evidence Bagley provided regarding BY’s statements, which these authors chose to omit.

Thank you, Beastie, for providing us with your thoughts. In addition, I appreciate the time it must've taken to transcribe all those paragraphs from the book.


You’re welcome. I am devoting much of my free time this week to this project, and then I plan to leave it alone. It is a horrible topic, and one I would rather not dwell on much longer. It must have been quite depressing to engage this topic for literally years.

Personally, I think this is not so much a turning point in enlightenment from the brethren recognizing the value of more accurate history, but simply recognizing a loss of control of message.

For the last several decades the church had a virtual monopoly on the Joseph Smith story and the MMM - with the exceptions of No Man and Juanita Brooks' book that could largely be deflected. For whatever reasons these stories found new footing and the church found itself losing control over those messages. The only really viable response to regain that control is to find new champions that could somehow tell the fuller and more accurate stories in a manner that one could still say 'the church its true' at the end. The price of that is to give Bushman, Turley, Leonard and others as much latitude as they need and trust that they can deliver with testimony despite it all. For all intents and purposes, I think they have succeeded in those goals about as well as possible.



Yes, I absolutely agree that their hand was forced. I believe that the leaders would rather have kept members in ignorance about these issues. Personally, I think that the second 9/11 renewed national interest in the first 9/11.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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